Re: [108attendees] Successful IETF 108
Bret Jordan <jordan2175@gmail.com> Mon, 03 August 2020 17:44 UTC
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From: Bret Jordan <jordan2175@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 03 Aug 2020 11:43:46 -0600
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To: "Les Ginsberg (ginsberg)" <ginsberg=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
Cc: Randy Bush <randy@psg.com>, Ben Campbell <ben@nostrum.com>, "108attendees@ietf.org" <108attendees@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [108attendees] Successful IETF 108
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IMHO, I think we should do things much differently. We need to remember that the structure of IETF meetings were set up a long time ago. 1) Working Groups should have monthly meetings over a video conferencing solution. This is where day-2-day decisions are made, work is generally done, and drafts are discussed. Slides should be prepared ahead of time and people should review them and come with questions. We should not rehash the slides on the call. We should open up each concept from the slides for discussion, where each concept is timeboxed. Outcomes are: 1) no general consensus so we punt the concept to a future meeting, 2) consensus against, so we don't do it, 3) consensus for it so we move forward. 2) We should still have Face2Face meetings. But these meetings should be reserved for topics that we can not get consensus on during monthly calls or over email. Face2Face meetings should be well organized by the chairs that have experience dealing with conflicts and competing proposals. The mic lines should be organized for people that are for a proposal and for people that are against a proposal. We should have whiteboards where we talk through ideas and work through complicated issues. Face 2 Face meetings for working groups should have at least two sessions if not three. But there needs to be breaks between them. This will allow individuals that have divergent views time to discuss and try to come to mutually acceptable agreement. But it is critical to have chairs that know how to identify the areas where things are in agreement and the areas where things are not in agreement and then balance and manage that conflict. Standards work is hard, but we need to figure out a better and faster way to work that is more eco-friendly and allows groups to be successful. I also think that the barrier to entry for new ideas and work groups should be a lot lower. How you proof the pudding is to make sure new work meets certain milestones. If not, then the working group is closed. For example, you could say all new working groups are basically approved but you have to have at least 15-20 people in each monthly meeting for at least 9 of the 12 months of the year. You need to produce at least 2 drafts per year. I would love to find a way to get more people involved in the IETF to balance out some of the echo chamber / myopic views that currently exist. We need more divergent views and voices, not less. Bret Sent from my TI-99/4A PGP Fingerprint: 63B4 FC53 680A 6B7D 1447 F2C0 74F8 ACAE 7415 0050 On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 11:28 AM Les Ginsberg (ginsberg) <ginsberg= 40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote: > FWIW, perhaps we should rethink the traditional meeting agenda. > > > > Today pretty much everyone does: > > > > - Present the slides I published 24 hours before the meeting > - In the time left for my slot (little to none because agendas are > usually full) entertain questions/discussion > > > > Instead, don’t present slides at all (still prepare/publish them – and > have them available if needed for reference). Each “presenter” gets 10-15 > minutes to simply take questions/have discussion – the interactive things > that have added value when done “face-to-face”. > > This would use meeting time to do what cannot be done as easily “on the > list”. > > > > People could still post video presentations if they wished – but I agree > that production skills vary widely and I am not optimistic that prerecorded > presentations on average would be any better than live ones on average. > > What I want to address is the frustration many of us feel is when there is > no time during the meeting for discussion. Without that, we might as well > be sending email to the list. > > > > To give people more time to review the slides, set a deadline for posting > the slides similar to that for new drafts – say one week before the actual > meeting. > > (Admittedly many of us – myself included – might only look at the slides > the morning of…but at least we would have the opportunity.) > > > > Les > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: 108attendees <108attendees-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Randy > > > Bush > > > Sent: Sunday, August 02, 2020 2:31 PM > > > To: Ben Campbell <ben@nostrum.com> > > > Cc: 108attendees@ietf.org > > > Subject: Re: [108attendees] Successful IETF 108 > > > > > > > Recording video of even marginally useable quality is a huge > > > > undertaking for most people. > > > > > > fwiw, most academic/research conferences went this path when the plague > > > hit. if a grad student can do it, you can too :) > > > > > > randy > > > > > > -- > > > 108attendees mailing list > > > 108attendees@ietf.org > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/108attendees > -- > 108attendees mailing list > 108attendees@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/108attendees >
- [108attendees] Successful IETF 108 Bob Hinden
- Re: [108attendees] Successful IETF 108 Lixia Zhang
- Re: [108attendees] Successful IETF 108 Carlos M. Martinez
- Re: [108attendees] Successful IETF 108 Keith Moore
- Re: [108attendees] Successful IETF 108 Stephen Farrell
- Re: [108attendees] Successful IETF 108 Randy Bush
- Re: [108attendees] Successful IETF 108 Antoni Przygienda
- Re: [108attendees] Successful IETF 108 Black, David
- Re: [108attendees] Successful IETF 108 Alexandre PETRESCU
- Re: [108attendees] Successful IETF 108 Tony Li
- Re: [108attendees] Successful IETF 108 Daniel Migault
- Re: [108attendees] Successful IETF 108 Leonard Giuliano
- Re: [108attendees] Successful IETF 108 Melchior Aelmans
- Re: [108attendees] Successful IETF 108 Gyan Mishra
- Re: [108attendees] Successful IETF 108 Joel M. Halpern
- Re: [108attendees] Successful IETF 108 Tim Chown
- Re: [108attendees] Successful IETF 108 Christian Huitema
- Re: [108attendees] Successful IETF 108 Bob Hinden
- Re: [108attendees] Successful IETF 108 Melinda Shore
- Re: [108attendees] Successful IETF 108 Andre Bondi
- Re: [108attendees] Successful IETF 108 Toerless Eckert
- Re: [108attendees] Successful IETF 108 Ben Campbell
- Re: [108attendees] Successful IETF 108 Carsten Bormann
- Re: [108attendees] Successful IETF 108 Toerless Eckert
- Re: [108attendees] Successful IETF 108 Tim Chown
- Re: [108attendees] Successful IETF 108 Melinda Shore
- Re: [108attendees] Successful IETF 108 Praneet Kaur
- Re: [108attendees] Successful IETF 108 Nabil Benamar
- Re: [108attendees] Successful IETF 108 David R. Oran
- Re: [108attendees] Successful IETF 108 Joel M. Halpern
- Re: [108attendees] Successful IETF 108 Joel M. Halpern
- Re: [108attendees] Successful IETF 108 Ted Lemon
- Re: [108attendees] Successful IETF 108 Susan Hares
- Re: [108attendees] Successful IETF 108 Linda Dunbar
- Re: [108attendees] Successful IETF 108 Toerless Eckert
- Re: [108attendees] Successful IETF 108 Randy Bush
- Re: [108attendees] Successful IETF 108 Carsten Bormann
- Re: [108attendees] Successful IETF 108 Randy Bush
- Re: [108attendees] Successful IETF 108 John Levine
- Re: [108attendees] Successful IETF 108 Les Ginsberg (ginsberg)
- Re: [108attendees] Successful IETF 108 Bret Jordan
- Re: [108attendees] Successful IETF 108 Wiethuechter, Adam
- Re: [108attendees] Successful IETF 108 Randy Bush
- Re: [108attendees] Successful IETF 108 Black, David
- Re: [108attendees] Successful IETF 108 Bron Gondwana
- Re: [108attendees] Successful IETF 108 Keith Moore
- Re: [108attendees] Successful IETF 108 Benoit Claise
- Re: [108attendees] Successful IETF 108 Keith Moore
- [108attendees] IETF 108 is unique ! K Mohan Raidu
- Re: [108attendees] Successful IETF 108 Carsten Bormann
- Re: [108attendees] Successful IETF 108 Carsten Bormann
- Re: [108attendees] Successful IETF 108 Christian Hopps
- Re: [108attendees] Successful IETF 108 Antoni Przygienda
- Re: [108attendees] Successful IETF 108 Mirja Kuehlewind
- Re: [108attendees] Successful IETF 108 Alexandre PETRESCU
- Re: [108attendees] Successful IETF 108 Alexandre PETRESCU
- Re: [108attendees] Successful IETF 108 Christian Hopps
- Re: [108attendees] Successful IETF 108 Alexandre PETRESCU
- Re: [108attendees] Successful IETF 108 Carsten Bormann
- Re: [108attendees] Successful IETF 108 Alexandre PETRESCU
- Re: [108attendees] Successful IETF 108 Vittorio Bertola
- Re: [108attendees] Successful IETF 108 Alexandre PETRESCU
- Re: [108attendees] Successful IETF 108 John Scudder
- Re: [108attendees] Successful IETF 108 Christian Hopps
- Re: [108attendees] Successful IETF 108 Ted Lemon
- Re: [108attendees] Successful IETF 108 Mike Bishop
- Re: [108attendees] Successful IETF 108 Alexandre PETRESCU
- Re: [108attendees] Successful IETF 108 John Scudder
- Re: [108attendees] Successful IETF 108 John Scudder
- Re: [108attendees] Successful IETF 108 tom.2.hill
- Re: [108attendees] Successful IETF 108 Ted Lemon
- Re: [108attendees] Successful IETF 108 Salz, Rich
- Re: [108attendees] Successful IETF 108 Marc Petit-Huguenin
- Re: [108attendees] Successful IETF 108 Salz, Rich
- Re: [108attendees] Successful IETF 108 Carsten Bormann
- Re: [108attendees] Successful IETF 108 Keith Moore
- Re: [108attendees] Successful IETF 108 Joel M. Halpern
- Re: [108attendees] Successful IETF 108 Carsten Bormann
- Re: [108attendees] Successful IETF 108 Keith Moore
- Re: [108attendees] Successful IETF 108 Ted Lemon
- Re: [108attendees] Successful IETF 108 Keith Moore
- Re: [108attendees] Successful IETF 108 Ted Lemon
- Re: [108attendees] Successful IETF 108 Keith Moore
- Re: [108attendees] Successful IETF 108 Carsten Bormann
- Re: [108attendees] Successful IETF 108 Ted Lemon
- Re: [108attendees] Successful IETF 108 Keith Moore
- Re: [108attendees] Successful IETF 108 Carsten Bormann
- Re: [108attendees] Successful IETF 108 Ted Lemon
- Re: [108attendees] Successful IETF 108 Jeffrey Haas
- Re: [108attendees] Successful IETF 108 Ted Lemon
- Re: [108attendees] Successful IETF 108 Toerless Eckert
- Re: [108attendees] Successful IETF 108 Toerless Eckert
- Re: [108attendees] Successful IETF 108 Toerless Eckert
- [108attendees] Please Fix your MUA: Re: IETF 108 … Mark Andrews
- Re: [108attendees] Please Fix your MUA: Re: IETF … Carsten Bormann
- Re: [108attendees] Please Fix your MUA: Re: IETF … K Mohan Raidu
- [108attendees] Agenda aware meetecho - Re: Succes… Toerless Eckert
- Re: [108attendees] Please Fix your MUA: Re: IETF … Ted Lemon