Re: [108attendees] Successful IETF 108

Alexandre PETRESCU <alexandre.petrescu@cea.fr> Tue, 04 August 2020 14:37 UTC

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From: Alexandre PETRESCU <alexandre.petrescu@cea.fr>
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Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2020 16:37:45 +0200
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Subject: Re: [108attendees] Successful IETF 108
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I just requested subscription to the 'manycouches' email list of the 
'shmoo' WG.

It is at https://ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manycouches

I take advantage of this subscription opportunity to suggest something 
that I already suggested to other similar places ('its' email list and 
IPWAVE WG, 'tm-rid' email list and DRIP WG).

There is a problem in the name 'shmoo' being different than 
'manycouches', let alone the problem of the last 'o' not being widely 
accepted (-only).  The problem is that I get confused about the name in 
URLs, email addresses and mail filters.  To address this problem, there 
is a need of mechanism to update the name of a mailing list easily.  The 
name 'manycouches', 'shmoo' and potentially others like 'moomin', or 
'without an -'o', should be just one name.  The requirement is that the 
update of the email list name should, among others, update the local 
filters of Mail User Agents in the people's computers, with their 
consent, of course; they should not be disturbed by this update.

Alex

Le 04/08/2020 à 15:43, Mirja Kuehlewind a écrit :
>
> Hi all,
>
> a similar discussion is currently happening on the 
> manycouches@ietf.org <mailto:manycouches@ietf.org> list as part of the 
> new shmoo working group. Maybe you want check out the discussion there 
> (or even move it over to that list).
>
> Mirja
>
> *From: *108attendees <108attendees-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of 
> Antoni Przygienda <prz=40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org>
> *Date: *Tuesday, 4. August 2020 at 15:00
> *To: *Christian Hopps <chopps@chopps.org>rg>, Bron Gondwana 
> <brong@fastmailteam.com>
> *Cc: *"108attendees@ietf.org" <108attendees@ietf.org>
> *Subject: *Re: [108attendees] Successful IETF 108
>
> I agree with Chris, presentations are useful in many respects.
>
> Timeslots need to be longer simply. In BIER we tend to bring as early 
> presos the WG item/high impact/high quality things (this of course 
> being subjective) but idea is of course for the slot being long enough 
> e’one that is somehow relevant can present.  The audience will vote 
> with their feet.
>
> Also, mike discussions have high value albeit they need be tightly 
> managed/clipped but this once-in-three-month- interactive slot on the 
> mike between experts/newbies/people who wandered in opens aspects 
> often that don’t come out on the mailing list or during preso
>
> nTony
>
> *From: *108attendees <108attendees-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of 
> Christian Hopps <chopps@chopps.org>
> *Date: *Tuesday, August 4, 2020 at 2:00 PM
> *To: *Bron Gondwana <brong@fastmailteam.com>
> *Cc: *Christian Hopps <chopps@chopps.org>rg>, "108attendees@ietf.org" 
> <108attendees@ietf.org>
> *Subject: *Re: [108attendees] Successful IETF 108
>
> *[External Email. Be cautious of content]*
>
>
>
>
>     On Aug 3, 2020, at 10:17 PM, Bron Gondwana <brong@fastmailteam.com
>     <mailto:brong@fastmailteam.com>> wrote:
>
>     On Tue, Aug 4, 2020, at 03:27, Les Ginsberg (ginsberg) wrote:
>
>         FWIW, perhaps we should rethink the traditional meeting agenda.
>
>         Today pretty much everyone does:
>
>         ·Present the slides I published 24 hours before the meeting
>
>         ·In the time left for my slot (little to none because agendas
>         are usually full) entertain questions/discussion
>
>         Instead, don’t present slides at all (still prepare/publish
>         them – and have them available if needed for reference). Each
>         “presenter” gets 10-15 minutes to simply take questions/have
>         discussion – the interactive things that have added value when
>         done “face-to-face”.
>
>         This would use meeting time to do what cannot be done as
>         easily “on the list”.
>
>     There's an assumption in here that the presenting of the slides
>     doesn't have any benefit, which I don't believe is true.
>
>     As the presenter talks through the slides they are aligning the
>     thoughts of everybody in the room (including themselves) and hence
>     when we get to the conversation, everybody has the cache state
>     loaded into their brain and the conversation can be productive.  I
>     don't think that "read the slides in advance and come with
>     questions" will give the same alignment.
>
> I was trying to figure out why I thought this wouldn't work well, and 
> I think you identified the most important aspect (cache loading and 
> aligning thoughts).
>
> A couple addition things that presenting the slides during the meeting 
> accomplishes, I think,
>
> 1) It allows for pulling in some experts (and their viewpoints) who 
> might make themselves available fully during meeting slots, but aren't 
> really so involved in the WG that they read every draft or would watch 
> videos of the slide presentations beforehand.
>
> 2) For work that the WG ultimately will reject, it gives the authors 
> the feeling that they were fully heard prior to that rejection. I know 
> that this should be able to be done strictly on the list; however, 
> human nature what it is, it sometimes helps when people actually see 
> that other people listened to them. This might still work if there was 
> lively back and forth during a Q&A session, but I suspect for this 
> type of work many people wouldn't watch the premade videos b/c they 
> suspected it wouldn't move forward, and so there'd be much less 
> participation during the Q&A part.
>
> In LSR we've certainly had meetings where we didn't have enough time, 
> but that was primarily after we merged IS-IS and OSPF and hadn't 
> figured things out. Lately things have been OK I think, up until IETF 
> 108. For IETF 108 we didn't have enough time to run things the way we 
> normally do -- 100m was definitely not enough time for us. For the 
> next virtual, if nothing changes with the format (single session 100m 
> max), we will be have to more limit who gets agenda slots, perhaps 
> with some "if there's time" slots tacked on the end in case discussion 
> times are not fully used on earlier presentations.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Chris.
>
>     I'm not saying "there's not better way", but it's worth
>     considering the positives of the existing patterns and seeing how
>     we can preserve them.
>
>     Bron
>
>     --
>
>     Bron Gondwana, CEO, Fastmail Pty Ltd
>
>     brong@fastmailteam.com <mailto:brong@fastmailteam.com>
>
>     --
>     108attendees mailing list
>     108attendees@ietf.org <mailto:108attendees@ietf.org>
>     https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/108attendees
>
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