Re: [108attendees] Successful IETF 108
Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org> Tue, 04 August 2020 10:05 UTC
Return-Path: <cabo@tzi.org>
X-Original-To: 108attendees@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: 108attendees@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 58FC23A1059 for <108attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Tue, 4 Aug 2020 03:05:44 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: 0.002
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.002 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id IWISHD03I6Sp for <108attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Tue, 4 Aug 2020 03:05:41 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9CE223A0B5D for <108attendees@ietf.org>; Tue, 4 Aug 2020 03:05:41 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from [172.16.42.101] (p5089ae91.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [80.137.174.145]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4BLVkW18ZszyYs; Tue, 4 Aug 2020 12:05:39 +0200 (CEST)
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.1\))
From: Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org>
In-Reply-To: <e702d892-38ac-51fd-1605-a834e6575b0c@cisco.com>
Date: Tue, 04 Aug 2020 12:05:38 +0200
Cc: Keith Moore <moore@network-heretics.com>, 108attendees@ietf.org
X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 618228337.8409899-dbc492c94625a3e37e5892f3c775d668
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Message-Id: <D06D367D-A3A6-4097-A5FB-A94084F510C1@tzi.org>
References: <DF9553CF-3B73-43C3-9BCF-5160A1949EC7@gmail.com> <3b9cc8e5-a9f2-cc44-8fc5-6b7649e43343@cs.tcd.ie> <392F9FEA-BA4A-4E57-B80D-D5B288B9887A@jisc.ac.uk> <f86a44a9-1f0e-9619-1a01-d2f9c98a756a@huitema.net> <20200802025924.GH1772@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <3C71AFFA-E6D5-446C-B20A-C35B1EB8FFDF@nostrum.com> <m2eeoog2fr.wl-randy@psg.com> <BY5PR11MB4337767597051839FE069836C14D0@BY5PR11MB4337.namprd11.prod.outlook.com> <78c2bda7-ccf5-44f0-9520-f012d6949180@dogfood.fastmail.com> <b7abb72c-c1d5-52c1-c718-7c982e76d788@network-heretics.com> <e702d892-38ac-51fd-1605-a834e6575b0c@cisco.com>
To: Benoit Claise <bclaise=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.1)
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/108attendees/yqLA2a263PcFmDYDB4B7dTUCDm8>
Subject: Re: [108attendees] Successful IETF 108
X-BeenThere: 108attendees@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: Mailing list for IETF 108 attendees <108attendees.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/108attendees>, <mailto:108attendees-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/108attendees/>
List-Post: <mailto:108attendees@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:108attendees-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/108attendees>, <mailto:108attendees-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 04 Aug 2020 10:05:44 -0000
> Granted. Time is always precious but not so precious as during a physical meeting week. Right. I think the digital form of this we found for IETF108 is about right: 5x5x8 (5 days of 5 hours, with 8 slots in parallel) or slightly less than 200 hours of meeting time (8 not always achievable, e.g. during plenary). The 5 hour format of the day allows to get some work done outside the meetings (e.g., side meetings, preparing and digesting drafts and slides, processing e-mail). Going higher than 5 wouldn’t work as well, as people would again need to process their email and prepare/digest materials during the meetings. > Most of the time, the speed of an organization depends on the number of meetings per year. With 4 meetings/year instead of 3, we know that IETF would move faster. IETF moved from a 4/yr to a 3/yr format before I got involved. It would be interesting to hear why. Currently, 2 of the three meetings are followed by a regional slowdown (summer ➔ vacation time in Europe, winter ➔ Thanksgiving and winter slowdown in the US). Going back to 4/yr might change the dynamics in other ways than just meeting more often. > To (try to) be on par with opensource projects speed, we have to adopt monthly or bi-weekly virtual calls. Whether you call that design team (with only active participants) or working group meeting (with everybody), it's a detail. I’m not sure it is. We have used periods of bi-weekly web meetings in some WGs and I can say these were useful. Turnout is smaller than at the 3/yr meetings (which I will call “summits” for the rest of this message as “face-to-face” no longer is true). I think the summit + interims format has worked much better than I would have thought. Summit = intense focusing all-week on IETF, interaction between WGs, new work (BOFs), some celebration of achievements, etc. Interim (duh, we need to change this term, too) = focus on a single WG and their products, time to prepare/digest just that, getting all the small decisions that enable further process (which is why it needs to be a WG meeting and not a design team meeting). Of course, WGs differ, so some won’t get much out of these web meetings, some will work best with infrequent interims, and some will want to use focused, one-theme-per-meeting, but regularly timed monthly or bi-weekly web meetings. > Those recurring virtual calls is also what we have in most companies in our industry. With 2 possible outcomes. Either the project takes off rapidly, or there is a lack of interest/energy/time and the project dies. Both are valid outcomes for IETF drafts and WGs. For many WGs, that is a good analogue. Make sure the meetings are not so frequent that people think they can do the work in the meeting, though (*); these should be prepared and post-processed events. Grüße, Carsten (*) The old adage of the IQ of a group being the average IQ of the participants divided by the number of the participants comes to mind. People need time to think, digest, prepare between the meetings.
- [108attendees] Successful IETF 108 Bob Hinden
- Re: [108attendees] Successful IETF 108 Lixia Zhang
- Re: [108attendees] Successful IETF 108 Carlos M. Martinez
- Re: [108attendees] Successful IETF 108 Keith Moore
- Re: [108attendees] Successful IETF 108 Stephen Farrell
- Re: [108attendees] Successful IETF 108 Randy Bush
- Re: [108attendees] Successful IETF 108 Antoni Przygienda
- Re: [108attendees] Successful IETF 108 Black, David
- Re: [108attendees] Successful IETF 108 Alexandre PETRESCU
- Re: [108attendees] Successful IETF 108 Tony Li
- Re: [108attendees] Successful IETF 108 Daniel Migault
- Re: [108attendees] Successful IETF 108 Leonard Giuliano
- Re: [108attendees] Successful IETF 108 Melchior Aelmans
- Re: [108attendees] Successful IETF 108 Gyan Mishra
- Re: [108attendees] Successful IETF 108 Joel M. Halpern
- Re: [108attendees] Successful IETF 108 Tim Chown
- Re: [108attendees] Successful IETF 108 Christian Huitema
- Re: [108attendees] Successful IETF 108 Bob Hinden
- Re: [108attendees] Successful IETF 108 Melinda Shore
- Re: [108attendees] Successful IETF 108 Andre Bondi
- Re: [108attendees] Successful IETF 108 Toerless Eckert
- Re: [108attendees] Successful IETF 108 Ben Campbell
- Re: [108attendees] Successful IETF 108 Carsten Bormann
- Re: [108attendees] Successful IETF 108 Toerless Eckert
- Re: [108attendees] Successful IETF 108 Tim Chown
- Re: [108attendees] Successful IETF 108 Melinda Shore
- Re: [108attendees] Successful IETF 108 Praneet Kaur
- Re: [108attendees] Successful IETF 108 Nabil Benamar
- Re: [108attendees] Successful IETF 108 David R. Oran
- Re: [108attendees] Successful IETF 108 Joel M. Halpern
- Re: [108attendees] Successful IETF 108 Joel M. Halpern
- Re: [108attendees] Successful IETF 108 Ted Lemon
- Re: [108attendees] Successful IETF 108 Susan Hares
- Re: [108attendees] Successful IETF 108 Linda Dunbar
- Re: [108attendees] Successful IETF 108 Toerless Eckert
- Re: [108attendees] Successful IETF 108 Randy Bush
- Re: [108attendees] Successful IETF 108 Carsten Bormann
- Re: [108attendees] Successful IETF 108 Randy Bush
- Re: [108attendees] Successful IETF 108 John Levine
- Re: [108attendees] Successful IETF 108 Les Ginsberg (ginsberg)
- Re: [108attendees] Successful IETF 108 Bret Jordan
- Re: [108attendees] Successful IETF 108 Wiethuechter, Adam
- Re: [108attendees] Successful IETF 108 Randy Bush
- Re: [108attendees] Successful IETF 108 Black, David
- Re: [108attendees] Successful IETF 108 Bron Gondwana
- Re: [108attendees] Successful IETF 108 Keith Moore
- Re: [108attendees] Successful IETF 108 Benoit Claise
- Re: [108attendees] Successful IETF 108 Keith Moore
- [108attendees] IETF 108 is unique ! K Mohan Raidu
- Re: [108attendees] Successful IETF 108 Carsten Bormann
- Re: [108attendees] Successful IETF 108 Carsten Bormann
- Re: [108attendees] Successful IETF 108 Christian Hopps
- Re: [108attendees] Successful IETF 108 Antoni Przygienda
- Re: [108attendees] Successful IETF 108 Mirja Kuehlewind
- Re: [108attendees] Successful IETF 108 Alexandre PETRESCU
- Re: [108attendees] Successful IETF 108 Alexandre PETRESCU
- Re: [108attendees] Successful IETF 108 Christian Hopps
- Re: [108attendees] Successful IETF 108 Alexandre PETRESCU
- Re: [108attendees] Successful IETF 108 Carsten Bormann
- Re: [108attendees] Successful IETF 108 Alexandre PETRESCU
- Re: [108attendees] Successful IETF 108 Vittorio Bertola
- Re: [108attendees] Successful IETF 108 Alexandre PETRESCU
- Re: [108attendees] Successful IETF 108 John Scudder
- Re: [108attendees] Successful IETF 108 Christian Hopps
- Re: [108attendees] Successful IETF 108 Ted Lemon
- Re: [108attendees] Successful IETF 108 Mike Bishop
- Re: [108attendees] Successful IETF 108 Alexandre PETRESCU
- Re: [108attendees] Successful IETF 108 John Scudder
- Re: [108attendees] Successful IETF 108 John Scudder
- Re: [108attendees] Successful IETF 108 tom.2.hill
- Re: [108attendees] Successful IETF 108 Ted Lemon
- Re: [108attendees] Successful IETF 108 Salz, Rich
- Re: [108attendees] Successful IETF 108 Marc Petit-Huguenin
- Re: [108attendees] Successful IETF 108 Salz, Rich
- Re: [108attendees] Successful IETF 108 Carsten Bormann
- Re: [108attendees] Successful IETF 108 Keith Moore
- Re: [108attendees] Successful IETF 108 Joel M. Halpern
- Re: [108attendees] Successful IETF 108 Carsten Bormann
- Re: [108attendees] Successful IETF 108 Keith Moore
- Re: [108attendees] Successful IETF 108 Ted Lemon
- Re: [108attendees] Successful IETF 108 Keith Moore
- Re: [108attendees] Successful IETF 108 Ted Lemon
- Re: [108attendees] Successful IETF 108 Keith Moore
- Re: [108attendees] Successful IETF 108 Carsten Bormann
- Re: [108attendees] Successful IETF 108 Ted Lemon
- Re: [108attendees] Successful IETF 108 Keith Moore
- Re: [108attendees] Successful IETF 108 Carsten Bormann
- Re: [108attendees] Successful IETF 108 Ted Lemon
- Re: [108attendees] Successful IETF 108 Jeffrey Haas
- Re: [108attendees] Successful IETF 108 Ted Lemon
- Re: [108attendees] Successful IETF 108 Toerless Eckert
- Re: [108attendees] Successful IETF 108 Toerless Eckert
- Re: [108attendees] Successful IETF 108 Toerless Eckert
- [108attendees] Please Fix your MUA: Re: IETF 108 … Mark Andrews
- Re: [108attendees] Please Fix your MUA: Re: IETF … Carsten Bormann
- Re: [108attendees] Please Fix your MUA: Re: IETF … K Mohan Raidu
- [108attendees] Agenda aware meetecho - Re: Succes… Toerless Eckert
- Re: [108attendees] Please Fix your MUA: Re: IETF … Ted Lemon