Re: [111attendees] Agenda pains

Alexandre Petrescu <alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com> Thu, 29 July 2021 18:39 UTC

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To: "Bare II, Keith" <Keith.Bare@netapp.com>, Toerless Eckert <tte@cs.fau.de>
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From: Alexandre Petrescu <alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [111attendees] Agenda pains
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Le 29/07/2021 à 18:24, Bare II, Keith a écrit :
> From: 111attendees <111attendees-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of
> Toerless Eckert Sent: Thursday, July 29, 2021 10:50 AM
> 
>> No idea who and how the rules to decide which city is used to
>> represent a particular TZ. I would guess Los Angeles was choosen
>> because it is the largest city in CA in DST, whereas San Francisco
>> is just the fourth largest.
> 
> The "Continent/City" TZ names come from the IANA Time Zone Database.
> 
> https://www.iana.org/time-zones

Thanks for the clarification and the explanation.

It makes think it might be advantageos to tell IANA that there are a few 
other cities called Los Angeles in the continent America.  They are on 
different time zones.

> The general rule is that a time zone is identified by the most
> populous city within an area that has historically observed the same
> local time.  But there is the complication that the population of
> cities changes over time, so the city in a TZ name might have been
> most populous when the TZ name was chosen, but is no longer most
> populous.
> 
> So in in the case of the agenda, it's using "America/Los_Angeles",
> the most populous city in the Western US, which uses the same local
> time as San Francisco, where a physical meeting would have been
> held.

If so, then the option "America/Los Angeles" could be named
"America/Los Angeles (the most populous LA of America, as of July 29, 
2021); for SF".
> 
> Likewise, Eastern US uses the "America/New_York" TZ name because New
> York is most populous.  Even though one might think it would make
> more sense to use Washington, the capital city.
> 
> TZ uses location names instead of a customary time zone name like
> "Pacific Time" or "Central European Time" because historically a
> location may have used different offsets from UTC, DST rules, or a
> different customary time zone name.  A good friend of mine who works
> on the TZ database demonstrated this by showing how "Asia/Singapore"
> will use "Japan Standard Time" during the period Singapore was
> occupied by Japan during World War II.
> 
> I will agree that this is tricky when you need to try and figure out
> what time it is in some other city in a part of the world you are not
> familiar with.  For example, I have trouble remembering I need to use
> "Asia/Kolkata" if I need to figure out what the local time is
> Bangalore, India.

I fully agree.

Talking about places is different depending on the respective cultures. 
  If I say Los Angeles to a resident of California, certainly s/he will 
understand LA.  But to a resident of Argentina, it is not sure.

But there are means to accommodate both in a still short name.

Alex

> 
> --Keith
> 
> 
> On Thu, Jul 29, 2021 at 03:39:44PM +0200, Alexandre Petrescu wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> Le 29/07/2021 à 15:23, Maisonneuve, Julien (Nokia -
>> FR/Paris-Saclay) a écrit :
>>> Thinking out loud : why not make the "local" agenda option the
>>> default ?
>> 
>> I support this suggestion, it makes sense: make the "Local" agenda 
>> option the default.  Currently the default is
>> "America/Los_Angeles".
>> 
>> (I suspect it is the Los Angeles on the same timezone as the
>> golden gate bridge illustrated on the first page, because golden
>> gate is a symbol of San Francisco, and that is the City where the
>> meeting should have taken place if no covid.  But I suspect there
>> are two San Franciscos in "America" and only one Los Angeles.)
>> 
>> Alex
>> 
>> Refreshing the agenda (to get the new WG agendas and
>>> materials) would not require returning to the page's top to
>>> resync to local. I would assume most people use their local set
>>> timezone, so it could be positive for a significant majority.
>>> Regards, Julien.
>>> 
>>> -----Original Message----- From: 111attendees 
>>> <111attendees-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Maisonneuve, Julien 
>>> (Nokia - FR/Paris-Saclay) Sent: Monday, July 26, 2021 7:54 PM To:
>>> Jonathan Morton <chromatix99@gmail.com> Cc: 111attendees@ietf.org
>>> Subject: Re: [111attendees] Agenda pains
>>> 
>>> Good catch, that solves the 100+ entries menu. It still goes away
>>> on refresh but it's usable. Julien.
>>> 
>>> -----Original Message----- From: Jonathan Morton 
>>> <chromatix99@gmail.com> Sent: Monday, July 26, 2021 7:36 PM To:
>>> Maisonneuve, Julien (Nokia - FR/Paris-Saclay)
>>> <julien.maisonneuve@nokia.com> Cc: 111attendees@ietf.org
>>> Subject: Re: [111attendees] Agenda pains
>>> 
>>>> On 26 Jul, 2021, at 8:14 pm, Maisonneuve, Julien (Nokia - 
>>>> FR/Paris-Saclay) <julien.maisonneuve@nokia.com> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Just one comment on the meeting agenda : I really like the 
>>>> "timezone" adjustment feature, it is very helpful once you get 
>>>> past the 100+ timezone menu.  However when you refresh the
>>>> page (as you should to get updates of agendas, materials,...)
>>>> you're back to the original timezone and must go again through
>>>> the 100+ timezone menu each and every time.
>>> 
>>>> This is a good feature, I'm sure there is a way to make it
>>>> less painful.
>>> 
>>> You could hit the "Local" link just about the drop menu - that 
>>> usually does the right thing.  It takes the timezone setting from
>>> your browser.
>>> 
>>> - Jonathan Morton
>>> 
>> 
>> -- 111attendees mailing list 111attendees@ietf.org 
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/111attendees
> 
> -- --- tte@cs.fau.de
> 
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