From nobody Fri Jul 30 12:38:32 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: 111attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: 111attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F7003A0C92 for <111attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Fri, 30 Jul 2021 12:38:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.162 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.162 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.452, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FROM_GOV_DKIM_AU=-0.612, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=dcms.gov.uk Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BRiBGweqgzPt for <111attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Fri, 30 Jul 2021 12:38:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lf1-x12a.google.com (mail-lf1-x12a.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::12a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C611B3A0C95 for <111attendees@ietf.org>; Fri, 30 Jul 2021 12:38:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lf1-x12a.google.com with SMTP id h2so20047939lfu.4 for <111attendees@ietf.org>; Fri, 30 Jul 2021 12:38:24 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=dcms.gov.uk; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=Eo1HbLgO3lU27VQVRkGXBg8Xto4cPKCFDckhqCu5rbg=; b=UGZAuNb4o3P4Ve0ulA3IdYCq/ymXUkkkLxqkRWQpCUxMVd8zokWCE1DcRCINNlws2L eT9We4JX9WedQVoo/In3FTreKmsBzzTCuPechsnhSqguFkJhmKmsFzQx7O9S+Dqmvdtw hjVc4O2Zw2Y+KjsP0TJVToVbJSgw/caog3YZRutI87vy5mHchTcCnaboUz1n+uRbhBrr Hc9rpvyNwlUXxqVEDaZgVVbbp9ce+ImXOB60IqfjBGYD0W7d54/3OFDRuZ1an9Rq1feM BU6B2tbvrjCY4Y2U7HhwJg3fF06o5tFyF/CAxUsiJcfSUfss7tLQnBx02tEuDleOkQ/Q y+aw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=Eo1HbLgO3lU27VQVRkGXBg8Xto4cPKCFDckhqCu5rbg=; b=AXGDWhfh7pBGsymMcxZHsiV5HFHXOzy8FzL6rDUlnCuT7ltUEWltUMTvcFn4irnOKz Cy9ZChPAVmA4TtZzGKdacvIPq696z5baHSOtr3c7OFAmsS9I1/xFGflGtW9TQRlAzsT6 pxaRk0nlhy89GOjBRsrOvSuZrSNMs4cHViafihrTF7wQLptphsJfhEmUt/C1+67NebFf q/DBrJIMMdg0yXDzTp9r2ryZbNQXuy9w5jB5GPzcTVtJj0ubrNMNOfgQUBgtVYNLe0M/ 7mUYwH87DUYGdEEOH2TgjBkHvtc3aCoguJUqPoyLzWytlzQfRv4Qc96DV/Fs6CqMvClm WoPQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530mZ25DtJ538aFNw4ZhFkVvjK4OVS5n5Vr54eELBhrUERjgDz12 ZMxiOjP+0E9ytR8zQyIgVSnalb184NZbDvr/u7l4pQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxVhJB5AEengklKu+wXoeAv7qiCbi/HjkPz3MmMhQtoNFKF+ZHsoUYlhEnYh6MK+v2Fq7wtI6xShyblfDS0JII= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6512:33d4:: with SMTP id d20mr3056958lfg.424.1627673901014; Fri, 30 Jul 2021 12:38:21 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Nigel Hickson Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2021 20:37:55 +0100 Message-ID: To: Spencer Dawkins at IETF Cc: Jay Daley , Bron Gondwana , 111attendees@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000aeb00f05c85c5cf5" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [111attendees] Positive observations and proposals for improvements to Meetecho (was: Re: Re: So, what are jabber scribes actually doing, these days?) X-BeenThere: 111attendees@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for IETF 111 attendees <111attendees.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2021 19:38:31 -0000 --000000000000aeb00f05c85c5cf5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Spencer Thoughtful observations. I probably have not read enough of the "chat" to make a comprehensive input; but just three thoughts: 1. Very much appreciative of folks of Meetecho for supplying this platform, I liked it; 2. Agree with comments that would be useful to have speaker names; 3. I was joining (given late hours) on a smartphone (interface was fine) so wary of too much sophistication; as guess many in some parts only have option of joining by phone; best Nigel On Fri, 30 Jul 2021 at 18:39, Spencer Dawkins at IETF < spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com> wrote: > I should have changed the Subject a LONG time ago! But this thread has > morphed into helpful observations and suggestions, so, if I might add a > couple of things ... > > I agree that Meetecho has been improving (and just for fun, the Meetecho > guys were participants in the MEDIACTL session I was co-chairing in > Hiroshima at IETF 76 in November 2009, and they roped in a team member fr= om > Italy during the discussion using whatever the toolset was back then, so > many of you have no idea how MUCH they've improved =F0=9F=98=80). > > I see that we've already mentioned detaching the chat window, and usually > I remember that we can detach the chat by Tuesday of each IETF meeting we= ek > at the latest, which is almost certainly a result of not having THAT much > experience with Meetecho during the four months between meetings. Now tha= t > we can use Meetecho for interim meetings, that will help me remember more > clearly, so good there, too. > > The one thing I've noticed this week is how difficult it is to figure out > who is speaking if they aren't sending video, and there's a long list of > people in the queue. The suggestion to move the speakers above the queue > would improve that, and so would simply displaying the active speaker nam= es > in the screen space where their video would have gone, if the person had > been sending video.One reason that matters, is that it's helpful for > everyone to get the speaker's name right in the minutes. That's not just > for new attendees, I'm starting to forget what people sound like, unless > I'm talking to them regularly, or they have a very distinctive speech > pattern, so I've definitely depending on seeing names when I'm taking > minutes. . > > The one thing I was thinking about, as I read through this thread, was > that we are kinda *not *talking about what the IETF thinks the target > audience for our conferencing tool is. > > - For probably the last couple of IETFs, I have a GREAT setup for > remote participation (my laptop screen, plus two 25-inch monitors). Bu= t I > do have tiled windows on all three screens. > - If we think people who can't throw a few hundred dollars at monitor > screens are part of our target audience, that's worth noting. > - If we think we're going to have hybrid meetings, in at least some > scenarios, it's going to be good to use Meetecho in the conference roo= ms > (especially if we need to be distancing, so more spread out, front to = back > in the conference rooms). > - Even if we aren't doing hybrid meetings, I've participated in some > working group meetings from my hotel room, but I wasn't tryng to co-ch= air a > meeting, or even to present at a meeting. > - When Michael Richardson and I talked to the Cellar working group > participants about switching to Meetecho for our (monthy) interims, th= e > first question we got was, "is there an iOS/Adroid client?" I haven't > checked Meetecho on my phone in years, but I'd bet offhand that (1) it > would work, but (2) it might not be as easy to use as some other > conferencing systems, on those devices. Do people have experience with= that? > > I'll let you folks continue to share these positive observations and > proposals. Make Good Choices, of course. > > Best, > > Spencer > > On Thu, Jul 29, 2021 at 6:15 PM Jay Daley wrote: > >> Thanks Bron. Personally I think that=E2=80=99s a great usability adjust= ment and >> will forward to the Meetecho team for them to consider. >> >> Jay >> >> > On 30/07/2021, at 10:58 AM, Bron Gondwana >> wrote: >> > >> > On Fri, Jul 30, 2021, at 05:21, Jay Daley wrote: >> >> No we have absolutely not pushed Meetecho into being "just a >> contractor", they are a valued partner and we work very well together. = If >> you have any doubts about that then ask them directly. >> >> >> >> It is disappointing that you have escalated a personal concern that >> you have with our services into such a strong criticism when that is >> entirely unsupported by any evidence. >> > >> > Jay, I agree with your sentiment here - this attitude to Meetecho is >> counterproductive. They've done great work for the last couple of IETFs >> and the experience is improving each time. I have particularly apprecia= ted >> the embedded slide management, and I'm sure that will be even better nex= t >> time too. >> > >> > Regarding the specific interface issues that remain, I do think there'= s >> a question of "where do we propose improvements in a way that will be >> noticed"? I've seen the suggestion made very many times that the "speak= er" >> area (where the video shows) should have additional lines for each perso= n >> sending anything, rather than that information being at the top of the >> participant list. This is much more like the experience with other chat >> systems, for example Zoom shows either a photo or a blank item for someb= ody >> who isn't currently sending video, but they're otherwise treated "the sa= me" >> as a person sending video in terms of real-estate and where to look for >> their presence by default. >> > >> > Right now with meetecho, my eyes are normally at the video are when >> people are speaking, but if a non-video person is speaking I need to loo= k >> across to the other side of the screen to see the audio indication. >> > >> > And as was also suggested in this thread, you can't scroll the >> participant list to find someone to chat to, because they jump to the to= p >> when they are sending, then back to alphabetical position. This is also= a >> usability pain. Separating "the list of participants" (which wouldn't m= ove >> about) and "the list of people sending something" with the video and aud= io >> indications being together in one place would be a significant >> improvement. And as an additional benefit, when you're looking at the c= hat >> window, you would still be able to see all the details of who is sending >> (including yourself - if you're sending then the indicator of your own >> audio should be the same as the indicator of everyone else's audio, rath= er >> than being in yet a third location up under your own name). >> > >> > >> > So those two names would appear in the right hand side, and also still >> have their name in the participant list, and the video feeds would each >> have a "here's what's being sent". Chairs would always have a presence = on >> the right, with whatever they were currently sending - and the >> "participants" tab would only have the list of participants, and not be = a >> place you needed to go to see activity, so you could mostly keep the cha= t >> tab open. >> > >> > Bron. >> > >> > >> > -- >> > Bron Gondwana, CEO, Fastmail Pty Ltd >> > brong@fastmailteam.com >> > >> > >> > -- >> > 111attendees mailing list >> > 111attendees@ietf.org >> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/111attendees >> >> -- >> Jay Daley >> IETF Executive Director >> jay@ietf.org >> >> -- >> 111attendees mailing list >> 111attendees@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/111attendees >> > -- > 111attendees mailing list > 111attendees@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/111attendees > --000000000000aeb00f05c85c5cf5 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Spencer=C2=A0

Thoughtf= ul=C2=A0observations.=C2=A0 I probably=C2=A0have not read enough of the &qu= ot;chat" to make a comprehensive input; but just three=C2=A0thoughts:= =C2=A0

1. Very much appreciative of folks of Meete= cho for supplying=C2=A0this platform, I liked it;=C2=A0
2. Agree = with comments that would be useful to have speaker names;
3. I wa= s joining (given late hours) on a smartphone (interface was fine) so wary o= f too much sophistication; as guess many in some parts only have option of = joining by phone;=C2=A0

best

<= div>Nigel=C2=A0=C2=A0

On Fri, 30 Jul 2021 at 18:39, Spencer Dawkins at= IETF <spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:
I should have change= d the Subject a LONG time ago! But this thread has morphed into helpful obs= ervations and suggestions, so, if I might add a couple of things ...
<= div>
I agree that Meetecho has been improving (and just for f= un, the Meetecho guys were participants in the MEDIACTL session I was co-ch= airing in Hiroshima at IETF 76 in November 2009, and they roped in a team m= ember from Italy during the discussion using whatever the toolset was back = then, so many of you have no idea how MUCH they've improved=C2=A0=F0=9F= =98=80).

I see that we've already mentioned de= taching the chat window, and usually I remember that we can detach the chat= by Tuesday of each IETF meeting week at the latest, which is almost certai= nly a result of not having THAT much experience with=C2=A0Meetecho during t= he four months between meetings. Now that we can use Meetecho for interim m= eetings, that will help me remember more clearly, so good there, too.
=

The one thing I've noticed this week is how difficu= lt it is to figure out who is speaking if they aren't sending video, an= d there's a long list of people in the queue. The suggestion to move th= e speakers above the queue would improve that, and so would simply displayi= ng the active speaker names in the screen space where their video would hav= e gone, if the person had been sending video.One reason that matters, is th= at it's helpful for everyone to get the speaker's name right in the= minutes. That's not just for new attendees, I'm starting to forget= what people sound like, unless I'm talking to them regularly, or they = have a very distinctive speech pattern, so I've definitely depending on= seeing names when I'm taking minutes. .=C2=A0

The one thing I was thinking about, as I read through this thread, was tha= t we are kinda not talking about what the IETF thinks the target aud= ience for our conferencing tool is.=C2=A0
  • For probably th= e last couple of IETFs, I have a GREAT setup for remote participation (my l= aptop screen, plus two 25-inch monitors). But I do have tiled windows on al= l three screens.
  • If we think people who can't throw a few hundr= ed dollars at monitor screens are part of our target audience, that's w= orth noting.=C2=A0
  • If we think we're going to have hybrid meeti= ngs, in at least some scenarios, it's going to be good to use Meetecho = in the conference rooms (especially if we need to be distancing, so more sp= read out, front to back in the conference rooms).=C2=A0
  • Even if we = aren't doing hybrid meetings, I've participated in some working gro= up meetings from my hotel room, but I wasn't tryng to co-chair a meetin= g, or even to present at a meeting.=C2=A0
  • When Michael Richardson a= nd I talked to the Cellar working group participants about switching to Mee= techo for our (monthy) interims, the first question we got was, "is th= ere an iOS/Adroid client?" I haven't checked Meetecho on my phone = in years, but I'd bet offhand that (1) it would work, but (2) it might = not be as easy to use as some other conferencing systems, on those devices.= Do people have experience with that?
I'll let you folks = continue to share these positive observations and proposals. Make Good Choi= ces, of course.

Best,

Spe= ncer

On Thu, Jul 29, 2021 at 6:15 PM Jay Daley <jay@ietf.org> wrote:
Thanks Bron.=C2=A0 Personally I = think that=E2=80=99s a great usability adjustment and will forward to the M= eetecho team for them to consider.

Jay

> On 30/07/2021, at 10:58 AM, Bron Gondwana <brong@fastmailteam.com> wrote: >
> On Fri, Jul 30, 2021, at 05:21, Jay Daley wrote:
>> No we have absolutely not pushed Meetecho into being "just a = contractor", they are a valued partner and we work very well together.= =C2=A0 If you have any doubts about that then ask them directly.=C2=A0
>>
>> It is disappointing that you have escalated a personal concern tha= t you have with our services into such a strong criticism when that is enti= rely unsupported by any evidence.=C2=A0
>
> Jay, I agree with your sentiment here - this attitude to Meetecho is c= ounterproductive.=C2=A0 They've done great work for the last couple of = IETFs and the experience is improving each time.=C2=A0 I have particularly = appreciated the embedded slide management, and I'm sure that will be ev= en better next time too.
>
> Regarding the specific interface issues that remain, I do think there&= #39;s a question of "where do we propose improvements in a way that wi= ll be noticed"?=C2=A0 I've seen the suggestion made very many time= s that the "speaker" area (where the video shows) should have add= itional lines for each person sending anything, rather than that informatio= n being at the top of the participant list.=C2=A0 This is much more like th= e experience with other chat systems, for example Zoom shows either a photo= or a blank item for somebody who isn't currently sending video, but th= ey're otherwise treated "the same" as a person sending video = in terms of real-estate and where to look for their presence by default. >
> Right now with meetecho, my eyes are normally at the video are when pe= ople are speaking, but if a non-video person is speaking I need to look acr= oss to the other side of the screen to see the audio indication.
>
> And as was also suggested in this thread, you can't scroll the par= ticipant list to find someone to chat to, because they jump to the top when= they are sending, then back to alphabetical position.=C2=A0 This is also a= usability pain.=C2=A0 Separating "the list of participants" (whi= ch wouldn't move about) and "the list of people sending something&= quot; with the video and audio indications being together in one place woul= d be a significant improvement.=C2=A0 And as an additional benefit, when yo= u're looking at the chat window, you would still be able to see all the= details of who is sending (including yourself - if you're sending then= the indicator of your own audio should be the same as the indicator of eve= ryone else's audio, rather than being in yet a third location up under = your own name).
>
> <image.png>
> So those two names would appear in the right hand side, and also still= have their name in the participant list, and the video feeds would each ha= ve a "here's what's being sent".=C2=A0 Chairs would alway= s have a presence on the right, with whatever they were currently sending -= and the "participants" tab would only have the list of participa= nts, and not be a place you needed to go to see activity, so you could most= ly keep the chat tab open.
>
> Bron.
>
>
> --
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0Bron Gondwana, CEO, Fastmail Pty Ltd
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0brong@fastmailteam.com
>
>
> --
> 111attendees mailing list
> 111attendee= s@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/111atte= ndees

--
Jay Daley
IETF Executive Director
jay@ietf.org

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