From nobody Fri Jul 30 10:38:30 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: 111attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: 111attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A335C3A07A1; Fri, 30 Jul 2021 10:38:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jI0uH2XbdYqn; Fri, 30 Jul 2021 10:38:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vs1-xe2a.google.com (mail-vs1-xe2a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::e2a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 96F9B3A0602; Fri, 30 Jul 2021 10:38:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-vs1-xe2a.google.com with SMTP id j10so5839163vsl.10; Fri, 30 Jul 2021 10:38:14 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=Nbnr+YOxBvjcPPSyC8hnZrm8qzYo55aHNIM/Bc6GE0E=; b=mwJoMnAbpm+Z6LBc8qgv7RTX54vq9tnJXl23kJtArx0uDwaNH+rUqKA/bio6srvtBt BfIYIzKv6XJij1NrNt0ari0CA76r9iAwKCkxaLghTjps71uOmT2ixSIkMkwOEqBHSmFe F4jQIP4Jc+fWVn247MxTmbF4sphCV4PoRUI5pHLXGkVsTzQm7Z6yfXaNklaTe/VC7ZbN rKg5moV7p+oLdeSLAFjqS6l0pCCsyFt3xaQm+dpMLYFak2xa/ZMT1SryXSHibLvLrSH0 9sJhuEF6r1zdb7+FH5IwQkfPuoDK3Jd1GqW2JFuuqfFYQCXIQW0e8OC9wKKPa1zkk3q0 9BNA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=Nbnr+YOxBvjcPPSyC8hnZrm8qzYo55aHNIM/Bc6GE0E=; b=frDPZLXZviC+xOf+fjAZjYIGDBl+5xPf8Qw8GQF9LOV/U2NruS9sBed0XmO1tnbYK9 isVmhjJolteGmjf81G6ZNjW5JfoY2Z+n2APYc316+9Y5AwymRwTSdritwVpuB+UWGV8V nQW9D6Z3C+1gBodwKc/KcDCuKQV/R6XmGaY+WD5bobDluFszLPRJXNI4PSE9V66ay6RL ZBKZMBtqaqBOtM0shT9um3oWRoPtM6wiEImRmD3sCsAL9VPtSoQGrgeYG1Z7fI0ht3p+ uzPIVG8ZyW16jM87wVjLkrfP4yq1PySGcGurIFeM9Akxrqke/0iRHykmxkD8C1xuSg6u 13Pg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532U+fqOwk3p4NutWmOUuq+Tbi0NvR86ejMKDbN7Y/S1o6/pRDCL n7ECHQNl8bJC+beTqLnrfxJngrokTVTf4nmP4d5Twtks X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyF1t20zhZPkYJFcCPyMz1xtJsW2snz8r5nR8I/DxrxZwHcT+l6rXv+H0jEZr7/n767xvoMRzYD6jH4sO951cE= X-Received: by 2002:a67:f854:: with SMTP id b20mr3134690vsp.32.1627666692945; Fri, 30 Jul 2021 10:38:12 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Spencer Dawkins at IETF Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2021 12:37:46 -0500 Message-ID: To: Jay Daley Cc: Bron Gondwana , 111attendees@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000000bba6e05c85aafed" Archived-At: Subject: [111attendees] Positive observations and proposals for improvements to Meetecho (was: Re: Re: So, what are jabber scribes actually doing, these days?) X-BeenThere: 111attendees@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for IETF 111 attendees <111attendees.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2021 17:38:28 -0000 --0000000000000bba6e05c85aafed Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I should have changed the Subject a LONG time ago! But this thread has morphed into helpful observations and suggestions, so, if I might add a couple of things ... I agree that Meetecho has been improving (and just for fun, the Meetecho guys were participants in the MEDIACTL session I was co-chairing in Hiroshima at IETF 76 in November 2009, and they roped in a team member from Italy during the discussion using whatever the toolset was back then, so many of you have no idea how MUCH they've improved =F0=9F=98=80). I see that we've already mentioned detaching the chat window, and usually I remember that we can detach the chat by Tuesday of each IETF meeting week at the latest, which is almost certainly a result of not having THAT much experience with Meetecho during the four months between meetings. Now that we can use Meetecho for interim meetings, that will help me remember more clearly, so good there, too. The one thing I've noticed this week is how difficult it is to figure out who is speaking if they aren't sending video, and there's a long list of people in the queue. The suggestion to move the speakers above the queue would improve that, and so would simply displaying the active speaker names in the screen space where their video would have gone, if the person had been sending video.One reason that matters, is that it's helpful for everyone to get the speaker's name right in the minutes. That's not just for new attendees, I'm starting to forget what people sound like, unless I'm talking to them regularly, or they have a very distinctive speech pattern, so I've definitely depending on seeing names when I'm taking minutes. . The one thing I was thinking about, as I read through this thread, was that we are kinda *not *talking about what the IETF thinks the target audience for our conferencing tool is. - For probably the last couple of IETFs, I have a GREAT setup for remote participation (my laptop screen, plus two 25-inch monitors). But I do ha= ve tiled windows on all three screens. - If we think people who can't throw a few hundred dollars at monitor screens are part of our target audience, that's worth noting. - If we think we're going to have hybrid meetings, in at least some scenarios, it's going to be good to use Meetecho in the conference rooms (especially if we need to be distancing, so more spread out, front to ba= ck in the conference rooms). - Even if we aren't doing hybrid meetings, I've participated in some working group meetings from my hotel room, but I wasn't tryng to co-chai= r a meeting, or even to present at a meeting. - When Michael Richardson and I talked to the Cellar working group participants about switching to Meetecho for our (monthy) interims, the first question we got was, "is there an iOS/Adroid client?" I haven't checked Meetecho on my phone in years, but I'd bet offhand that (1) it would work, but (2) it might not be as easy to use as some other conferencing systems, on those devices. Do people have experience with t= hat? I'll let you folks continue to share these positive observations and proposals. Make Good Choices, of course. Best, Spencer On Thu, Jul 29, 2021 at 6:15 PM Jay Daley wrote: > Thanks Bron. Personally I think that=E2=80=99s a great usability adjustm= ent and > will forward to the Meetecho team for them to consider. > > Jay > > > On 30/07/2021, at 10:58 AM, Bron Gondwana > wrote: > > > > On Fri, Jul 30, 2021, at 05:21, Jay Daley wrote: > >> No we have absolutely not pushed Meetecho into being "just a > contractor", they are a valued partner and we work very well together. I= f > you have any doubts about that then ask them directly. > >> > >> It is disappointing that you have escalated a personal concern that yo= u > have with our services into such a strong criticism when that is entirely > unsupported by any evidence. > > > > Jay, I agree with your sentiment here - this attitude to Meetecho is > counterproductive. They've done great work for the last couple of IETFs > and the experience is improving each time. I have particularly appreciat= ed > the embedded slide management, and I'm sure that will be even better next > time too. > > > > Regarding the specific interface issues that remain, I do think there's > a question of "where do we propose improvements in a way that will be > noticed"? I've seen the suggestion made very many times that the "speake= r" > area (where the video shows) should have additional lines for each person > sending anything, rather than that information being at the top of the > participant list. This is much more like the experience with other chat > systems, for example Zoom shows either a photo or a blank item for somebo= dy > who isn't currently sending video, but they're otherwise treated "the sam= e" > as a person sending video in terms of real-estate and where to look for > their presence by default. > > > > Right now with meetecho, my eyes are normally at the video are when > people are speaking, but if a non-video person is speaking I need to look > across to the other side of the screen to see the audio indication. > > > > And as was also suggested in this thread, you can't scroll the > participant list to find someone to chat to, because they jump to the top > when they are sending, then back to alphabetical position. This is also = a > usability pain. Separating "the list of participants" (which wouldn't mo= ve > about) and "the list of people sending something" with the video and audi= o > indications being together in one place would be a significant > improvement. And as an additional benefit, when you're looking at the ch= at > window, you would still be able to see all the details of who is sending > (including yourself - if you're sending then the indicator of your own > audio should be the same as the indicator of everyone else's audio, rathe= r > than being in yet a third location up under your own name). > > > > > > So those two names would appear in the right hand side, and also still > have their name in the participant list, and the video feeds would each > have a "here's what's being sent". Chairs would always have a presence o= n > the right, with whatever they were currently sending - and the > "participants" tab would only have the list of participants, and not be a > place you needed to go to see activity, so you could mostly keep the chat > tab open. > > > > Bron. > > > > > > -- > > Bron Gondwana, CEO, Fastmail Pty Ltd > > brong@fastmailteam.com > > > > > > -- > > 111attendees mailing list > > 111attendees@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/111attendees > > -- > Jay Daley > IETF Executive Director > jay@ietf.org > > -- > 111attendees mailing list > 111attendees@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/111attendees > --0000000000000bba6e05c85aafed Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I should have changed the Subject a LONG time ago! Bu= t this thread has morphed into helpful observations and suggestions, so, if= I might add a couple of things ...

I agree that M= eetecho has been improving (and just for fun, the Meetecho guys were partic= ipants in the MEDIACTL session I was co-chairing in Hiroshima at IETF 76 in= November 2009, and they roped in a team member from Italy during the discu= ssion using whatever the toolset was back then, so many of you have no idea= how MUCH they've improved=C2=A0=F0=9F=98=80).

I see that we've already mentioned detaching the chat window, and usua= lly I remember that we can detach the chat by Tuesday of each IETF meeting = week at the latest, which is almost certainly a result of not having THAT m= uch experience with=C2=A0Meetecho during the four months between meetings. = Now that we can use Meetecho for interim meetings, that will help me rememb= er more clearly, so good there, too.

The one thing= I've noticed this week is how difficult it is to figure out who is spe= aking if they aren't sending video, and there's a long list of peop= le in the queue. The suggestion to move the speakers above the queue would = improve that, and so would simply displaying the active speaker names in th= e screen space where their video would have gone, if the person had been se= nding video.One reason that matters, is that it's helpful for everyone = to get the speaker's name right in the minutes. That's not just for= new attendees, I'm starting to forget what people sound like, unless I= 'm talking to them regularly, or they have a very distinctive speech pa= ttern, so I've definitely depending on seeing names when I'm taking= minutes. .=C2=A0

The one thing I was thinking abo= ut, as I read through this thread, was that we are kinda not talking= about what the IETF thinks the target audience for our conferencing tool i= s.=C2=A0
  • For probably the last couple of IETFs, I have a = GREAT setup for remote participation (my laptop screen, plus two 25-inch mo= nitors). But I do have tiled windows on all three screens.
  • If we th= ink people who can't throw a few hundred dollars at monitor screens are= part of our target audience, that's worth noting.=C2=A0
  • If we = think we're going to have hybrid meetings, in at least some scenarios, = it's going to be good to use Meetecho in the conference rooms (especial= ly if we need to be distancing, so more spread out, front to back in the co= nference rooms).=C2=A0
  • Even if we aren't doing hybrid meetings,= I've participated in some working group meetings from my hotel room, b= ut I wasn't tryng to co-chair a meeting, or even to present at a meetin= g.=C2=A0
  • When Michael Richardson and I talked to the Cellar working= group participants about switching to Meetecho for our (monthy) interims, = the first question we got was, "is there an iOS/Adroid client?" I= haven't checked Meetecho on my phone in years, but I'd bet offhand= that (1) it would work, but (2) it might not be as easy to use as some oth= er conferencing systems, on those devices. Do people have experience with t= hat?
I'll let you folks continue to share these positive = observations and proposals. Make Good Choices, of course.

Best,

Spencer

On Thu, Jul 29, 2021 at= 6:15 PM Jay Daley <jay@ietf.org>= wrote:
Thanks B= ron.=C2=A0 Personally I think that=E2=80=99s a great usability adjustment a= nd will forward to the Meetecho team for them to consider.

Jay

> On 30/07/2021, at 10:58 AM, Bron Gondwana <brong@fastmailteam.com> wrote: >
> On Fri, Jul 30, 2021, at 05:21, Jay Daley wrote:
>> No we have absolutely not pushed Meetecho into being "just a = contractor", they are a valued partner and we work very well together.= =C2=A0 If you have any doubts about that then ask them directly.=C2=A0
>>
>> It is disappointing that you have escalated a personal concern tha= t you have with our services into such a strong criticism when that is enti= rely unsupported by any evidence.=C2=A0
>
> Jay, I agree with your sentiment here - this attitude to Meetecho is c= ounterproductive.=C2=A0 They've done great work for the last couple of = IETFs and the experience is improving each time.=C2=A0 I have particularly = appreciated the embedded slide management, and I'm sure that will be ev= en better next time too.
>
> Regarding the specific interface issues that remain, I do think there&= #39;s a question of "where do we propose improvements in a way that wi= ll be noticed"?=C2=A0 I've seen the suggestion made very many time= s that the "speaker" area (where the video shows) should have add= itional lines for each person sending anything, rather than that informatio= n being at the top of the participant list.=C2=A0 This is much more like th= e experience with other chat systems, for example Zoom shows either a photo= or a blank item for somebody who isn't currently sending video, but th= ey're otherwise treated "the same" as a person sending video = in terms of real-estate and where to look for their presence by default. >
> Right now with meetecho, my eyes are normally at the video are when pe= ople are speaking, but if a non-video person is speaking I need to look acr= oss to the other side of the screen to see the audio indication.
>
> And as was also suggested in this thread, you can't scroll the par= ticipant list to find someone to chat to, because they jump to the top when= they are sending, then back to alphabetical position.=C2=A0 This is also a= usability pain.=C2=A0 Separating "the list of participants" (whi= ch wouldn't move about) and "the list of people sending something&= quot; with the video and audio indications being together in one place woul= d be a significant improvement.=C2=A0 And as an additional benefit, when yo= u're looking at the chat window, you would still be able to see all the= details of who is sending (including yourself - if you're sending then= the indicator of your own audio should be the same as the indicator of eve= ryone else's audio, rather than being in yet a third location up under = your own name).
>
> <image.png>
> So those two names would appear in the right hand side, and also still= have their name in the participant list, and the video feeds would each ha= ve a "here's what's being sent".=C2=A0 Chairs would alway= s have a presence on the right, with whatever they were currently sending -= and the "participants" tab would only have the list of participa= nts, and not be a place you needed to go to see activity, so you could most= ly keep the chat tab open.
>
> Bron.
>
>
> --
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0Bron Gondwana, CEO, Fastmail Pty Ltd
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0brong@fastmailteam.com
>
>
> --
> 111attendees mailing list
> 111attendee= s@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/111atte= ndees

--
Jay Daley
IETF Executive Director
jay@ietf.org

--
111attendees mailing list
111attendees@iet= f.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/111attendees=
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