Re: [111attendees] [Tools-discuss] Positive observations and proposals for improvements to Meetecho (was: Re: Re: So, what are jabber scribes actually doing, these days?)

[Eric Rescorla <[e-mail]>]

On Fri, Jul 30, 2021 at 2:03 PM Bron Gondwana <[e-mail]>
wrote:

> Ooh, we're going a full "suggestions for meetecho" thread?  I'd like to
> propose some things!
>
> *that we replace the current "raise hands" tool:*
>
> *... *which is based on an expired draft which isn't going to be
> refreshed - with a better tool that allows the chairs to:
>
> a) label each option
> b) have more than 2 options (max 9 maybe)
> c) select between "choose one" and "choose N" modes (checkbox vs radio
> button)
>
> ... and which appears IN PLACE of the slides when enabled, so that meeting
> participants don't have to navigate to a separate tab to interact.
>
> More generally, it's too easy for some participants to be lost on
> different tabs where they can't see the slides.  The multiple views where
> you can see individual talking heads in more detail are not actually
> valuable I don't think - if slides are showing they should be the bulk of
> the screen because they need to be read - and if a poll is showing then for
> sure it should be taking over the screen.
>

EKR Raises Hand.


*a "temporary mute" mode that keeps the audio stream open:*
>
> This is still an issue for me.  I often mute myself while chairing so I
> can take notes without my keyboard sound interrupting the chat - but it
> means that I can't easily respond to somebody because the rejigging of the
> audio channel not only creates a hiccup in the incoming audio feed which
> means I might miss something someone says, but it also creates enough of a
> delay that by the time I could have responded the other party's mental
> state has moved on.
>
> Timing is really important in conversation and we're already fighting with
> the quarter second delay imposed by the size of the planet.  Additional
> delay makes it unwieldy.
>

Note that this is a respect in which Meetecho is unusual. Most other VC
systems which I am familiar with just stop sending on the track but keep
the microphone open rather than dropping the media stream and re-calling
getUserMedia().

To your list, I would add auto-unmuting (and even more importantly, muting)
when people enter and exit the head of the queue. This would remove a lot
of goofy behavior.

-Ekr




*allow multiple connections by the same person to the same session:*
>
> I have multiple times wanted to switch device temporarily - from my
> desktop computer to a phone / ipad so I can temporarily move to another
> location while continuing to follow a meeting.  Multiple connection support
> would mean I could switch over without a break.
>
> Sure it could be abused by people "sharing" a login, but that would be
> pretty obvious if both parties tried to participate, and given that we
> allow fee waivers anyway, it's unlikely to be abused significantly.  Sure
> there are Jabber naming issues, but we can avoid that by giving each jabber
> name with a serial number (which I believe already happens now?)
>
> ...
>
> I've already written these up separately in the past, but:
>
> *information about who is speaking in the same place as video feeds*
>
> See my previous email :)  Basically the "participant list" should just be
> an ordered list of participants and only needs to be switched to when
> seeing who is in the call or opening an individual message to them (and
> people don't get moved out of order when they're sending something).  The
> "who is sending something" list should be all together with the video, and
> chairs pinned even if they're sending nothing right now.
>
> Along with visual indicators of "currently sending audio" on people so we
> know who of those with their audio channel open are currently speaking,
> this makes it easier to look in one place to see the source of all sound,
> and eyes can generally flit between the right hand side (video and audio
> indicators) and the slides, without needing to also track via the
> participant list.
>
> *flexible "assign chair"**:*
>
> This one hasn't come up in practice, but the chairs for meetings are
> pre-assigned from datatracker.  It would be great for ADs and the meetecho
> reps in each meeting to be able to upgrade anybody to a chair role or
> remove a chair role with a simple click.
>
> In real rooms, anyone can go sit in the chair at the front of the room,
> and it's not abused because of social convention.  I believe that we can
> map that to this virtual space and still have it work sensibly.  People
> won't take the chair unless there's a legitimate reason to do it, and so
> long as it's logged - if someone does consistently abuse it we have
> processes to eject them from the IETF for misbehaviour.
>
> This has become less important with the ability for individuals to turn on
> both audio and video themselves, so the chair is going less busywork just
> approving access, but it would be good to make it possible for someone else
> to step into the chair if the regular chairs are unable to attend or lose
> network, rather than making the meeting less able to run.
>
> Bron.
>
> On Sat, Jul 31, 2021, at 05:38, Meetecho IETF support wrote:
>
> All,
>
> chiming in just to say that we at Meetecho appreciate and value your
> feedback. We'll definitely take it into account when developing the
> future releases of the platform. We'll provide comments on the points
> raised as soon as we get the chance to parse them, i.e., when the
> meeting is over.
>
> Also, I'm cc'ing [e-mail] and setting the reply-to header
> to that list as well, as that's the right place to discuss enhancements
> and provide feedback that would be easier for us to collect.
>
> Best,
> Alessandro
>
> Il 30/07/21 19:37, Spencer Dawkins at IETF ha scritto:
> > I should have changed the Subject a LONG time ago! But this thread has
> > morphed into helpful observations and suggestions, so, if I might add a
> > couple of things ...
> >
> > I agree that Meetecho has been improving (and just for fun, the Meetecho
> > guys were participants in the MEDIACTL session I was co-chairing in
> > Hiroshima at IETF 76 in November 2009, and they roped in a team member
> > from Italy during the discussion using whatever the toolset was back
> > then, so many of you have no idea how MUCH they've improved 😀).
> >
> > I see that we've already mentioned detaching the chat window, and
> > usually I remember that we can detach the chat by Tuesday of each IETF
> > meeting week at the latest, which is almost certainly a result of not
> > having THAT much experience with Meetecho during the four months between
> > meetings. Now that we can use Meetecho for interim meetings, that will
> > help me remember more clearly, so good there, too.
> >
> > The one thing I've noticed this week is how difficult it is to figure
> > out who is speaking if they aren't sending video, and there's a long
> > list of people in the queue. The suggestion to move the speakers above
> > the queue would improve that, and so would simply displaying the active
> > speaker names in the screen space where their video would have gone, if
> > the person had been sending video.One reason that matters, is that it's
> > helpful for everyone to get the speaker's name right in the minutes.
> > That's not just for new attendees, I'm starting to forget what people
> > sound like, unless I'm talking to them regularly, or they have a very
> > distinctive speech pattern, so I've definitely depending on seeing names
> > when I'm taking minutes. .
> >
> > The one thing I was thinking about, as I read through this thread, was
> > that we are kinda *not *talking about what the IETF thinks the target
> > audience for our conferencing tool is.
> >
> >   * For probably the last couple of IETFs, I have a GREAT setup for
> >     remote participation (my laptop screen, plus two 25-inch monitors).
> >     But I do have tiled windows on all three screens.
> >   * If we think people who can't throw a few hundred dollars at monitor
> >     screens are part of our target audience, that's worth noting.
> >   * If we think we're going to have hybrid meetings, in at least some
> >     scenarios, it's going to be good to use Meetecho in the conference
> >     rooms (especially if we need to be distancing, so more spread out,
> >     front to back in the conference rooms).
> >   * Even if we aren't doing hybrid meetings, I've participated in some
> >     working group meetings from my hotel room, but I wasn't tryng to
> >     co-chair a meeting, or even to present at a meeting.
> >   * When Michael Richardson and I talked to the Cellar working group
> >     participants about switching to Meetecho for our (monthy) interims,
> >     the first question we got was, "is there an iOS/Adroid client?" I
> >     haven't checked Meetecho on my phone in years, but I'd bet offhand
> >     that (1) it would work, but (2) it might not be as easy to use as
> >     some other conferencing systems, on those devices. Do people have
> >     experience with that?
> >
> > I'll let you folks continue to share these positive observations and
> > proposals. Make Good Choices, of course.
> >
> > Best,
> >
> > Spencer
> >
> > On Thu, Jul 29, 2021 at 6:15 PM Jay Daley <[e-mail]
> > <mailto:[e-mail]>> wrote:
> >
> >     Thanks Bron.  Personally I think that’s a great usability adjustment
> >     and will forward to the Meetecho team for them to consider.
> >
> >     Jay
> >
> >      > On 30/07/2021, at 10:58 AM, Bron Gondwana <[e-mail]
> >     <mailto:[e-mail]>> wrote:
> >      >
> >      > On Fri, Jul 30, 2021, at 05:21, Jay Daley wrote:
> >      >> No we have absolutely not pushed Meetecho into being "just a
> >     contractor", they are a valued partner and we work very well
> >     together.  If you have any doubts about that then ask them directly.
> >      >>
> >      >> It is disappointing that you have escalated a personal concern
> >     that you have with our services into such a strong criticism when
> >     that is entirely unsupported by any evidence.
> >      >
> >      > Jay, I agree with your sentiment here - this attitude to Meetecho
> >     is counterproductive.  They've done great work for the last couple
> >     of IETFs and the experience is improving each time.  I have
> >     particularly appreciated the embedded slide management, and I'm sure
> >     that will be even better next time too.
> >      >
> >      > Regarding the specific interface issues that remain, I do think
> >     there's a question of "where do we propose improvements in a way
> >     that will be noticed"?  I've seen the suggestion made very many
> >     times that the "speaker" area (where the video shows) should have
> >     additional lines for each person sending anything, rather than that
> >     information being at the top of the participant list.  This is much
> >     more like the experience with other chat systems, for example Zoom
> >     shows either a photo or a blank item for somebody who isn't
> >     currently sending video, but they're otherwise treated "the same" as
> >     a person sending video in terms of real-estate and where to look for
> >     their presence by default.
> >      >
> >      > Right now with meetecho, my eyes are normally at the video are
> >     when people are speaking, but if a non-video person is speaking I
> >     need to look across to the other side of the screen to see the audio
> >     indication.
> >      >
> >      > And as was also suggested in this thread, you can't scroll the
> >     participant list to find someone to chat to, because they jump to
> >     the top when they are sending, then back to alphabetical position.
> >     This is also a usability pain.  Separating "the list of
> >     participants" (which wouldn't move about) and "the list of people
> >     sending something" with the video and audio indications being
> >     together in one place would be a significant improvement.  And as an
> >     additional benefit, when you're looking at the chat window, you
> >     would still be able to see all the details of who is sending
> >     (including yourself - if you're sending then the indicator of your
> >     own audio should be the same as the indicator of everyone else's
> >     audio, rather than being in yet a third location up under your own
> >     name).
> >      >
> >      > <image.png>
> >      > So those two names would appear in the right hand side, and also
> >     still have their name in the participant list, and the video feeds
> >     would each have a "here's what's being sent".  Chairs would always
> >     have a presence on the right, with whatever they were currently
> >     sending - and the "participants" tab would only have the list of
> >     participants, and not be a place you needed to go to see activity,
> >     so you could mostly keep the chat tab open.
> >      >
> >      > Bron.
> >      >
> >      >
> >      > --
> >      >   Bron Gondwana, CEO, Fastmail Pty Ltd
> >      > [e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]>
> >      >
> >      >
> >      > --
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> >      > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/111attendees
> >     <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/111attendees>
> >
> >     --
> >     Jay Daley
> >     IETF Executive Director
> >     [e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]>
> >
> >     --
> >     111attendees mailing list
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> >     <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/111attendees>
> >
> >
>
> --
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>
> --
>   Bron Gondwana, CEO, Fastmail Pty Ltd
>   [e-mail]
>
>
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