Re: [111attendees] So, what are jabber scribes actually doing, these days?
John C Klensin <john-ietf@jck.com> Thu, 29 July 2021 19:08 UTC
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Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2021 15:08:34 -0400
From: John C Klensin <john-ietf@jck.com>
To: Robert Moskowitz <rgm@labs.htt-consult.com>, Mirja Kuehlewind <mirja.kuehlewind=40ericsson.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, Spencer Dawkins at IETF <spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com>, Sean Turner <sean@sn3rd.com>
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Subject: Re: [111attendees] So, what are jabber scribes actually doing, these days?
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--On Thursday, July 29, 2021 11:43 -0400 Robert Moskowitz <rgm@labs.htt-consult.com> wrote: > On 7/29/21 11:37 AM, Mirja Kuehlewind wrote: >>> In addition to chair bandwidth, screen real estate, etc., >>> there is a more fundamental problem: with the current >>> Meetecho setup, it has impossible (or, at least non-obvious) >>> to have both the chat and participant frames open at the >>> same time. >> You can detach the chat window into a separate window. Tried doing that. Discovered that it helps with some issues and not others, but those problems are more unique to me than general issues. > And with 2 screen approach move it to your expanded real > estate. Of course. But I am trying to stay focused on general issues that I believe cause problems for many people (see Carsten's recent note and my response) rather than on my special problems, why I have those problems, the options I do and do not have (or might be able to have) in my setup, and what might or might not be effective in mitigating the specific issues I am having. However, since you both brought up variations on that option and because others might have similar issues, let me try to generalize a bit (people who don't like my long messages should stop reading here or skip to the last paragraph): (1) If one were using a single, relatively small screen (size measured in cm, inches, or relative to the visual perception capabilities of the user), then detaching the chat window or using a separate client is problematic because, if the other information on the Meetecho screen is important, there is no place to put the chat material without losing information. The same comment would apply if one had a large display or even two or three of them but needed to extend the Meetecho window across all of them in order to be able to see properly. (2) Even if it is possible to get the chat frame out of the way, having to scroll up and down in the participant frame in order to tell who is speaking (if that person is not sending video), who is in the queue and how long it is, etc., is problematic. The worst part of that problem is the "who is speaking" information, which could easily be displayed in the unused area near the top of the Meetecho window or, perhaps better, to the right where the speaker's image would appear if they were sending video. (3) FWIW, the new "private conversation" facility in Meetecho has become part of the problem: the relevant frame appears in the lower right of the Meetecho window, uses small type, and, at least AFAICT, cannot be moved or expanded. (4) For more years than I can remember (but going back to when we were still using overhead projectors), there have been regular incidents of people using too-small type and trying to squeeze too much information onto a page. I think that tends to be worse in when the viewer is remote than in a room where "move closer to the screen" is an issue. Recent versions of Meetecho aggravate those situations (rather than helping with them) by showing slides projected (in at least some ways) in a fairly small area of the screen, without the possibility of detaching that area or selectively enlarging it. One can expand the picture to full screen, but that means all of the speaker information (even for speakers sending video), queue information, chair and participant information, even the ability to get into the queue, etc., are blocked. If the chat is off on a separate screen that helps, but not much. I'm not sure there is a satisfactory technical solution for that which would not be far more complicated (or dependent on over-restrictive assumptions about user equipment) then it would be worth, but the IESG and WG Chairs could be doing far more to push back on the bad practices in the first place. The LLC leadership could be doing more too since some of the worst offenders I've seen so far this week have been presented by LLC staff. ---- We (and I think that means the IETF and its leadership rather than anything Meetecho staff are doing or resisting doing) really need to think carefully about these issues and get them under control rather than either sending out messages that imply the the person raising particular issues is too ignorant to use the tools properly (even when that is true, such ignorance is often a sign of poor design or weak supporting materials). And we better do it before the first "hybrid" meetings because, while the effective participation of the relatively small number of active remote contributors prior to IETF 107 could perhaps be safely ignored as an issue, hybrid nestlings are hard and things better work for everyone. best, john
- Re: [111attendees] So, what are jabber scribes ac… Carlos M. Martinez
- [111attendees] So, what are jabber scribes actual… Spencer Dawkins at IETF
- Re: [111attendees] So, what are jabber scribes ac… Toerless Eckert
- Re: [111attendees] So, what are jabber scribes ac… Sean Turner
- Re: [111attendees] So, what are jabber scribes ac… Yoav Nir
- Re: [111attendees] So, what are jabber scribes ac… Jonathan Hoyland
- Re: [111attendees] So, what are jabber scribes ac… Spencer Dawkins at IETF
- Re: [111attendees] So, what are jabber scribes ac… Spencer Dawkins at IETF
- Re: [111attendees] So, what are jabber scribes ac… Andrew G. Malis
- Re: [111attendees] So, what are jabber scribes ac… Bob Hinden
- Re: [111attendees] So, what are jabber scribes ac… Andrew G. Malis
- Re: [111attendees] So, what are jabber scribes ac… Toerless Eckert
- Re: [111attendees] So, what are jabber scribes ac… Watson Ladd
- Re: [111attendees] So, what are jabber scribes ac… John C Klensin
- Re: [111attendees] So, what are jabber scribes ac… Carsten Bormann
- Re: [111attendees] So, what are jabber scribes ac… Carsten Bormann
- Re: [111attendees] So, what are jabber scribes ac… Carsten Bormann
- Re: [111attendees] So, what are jabber scribes ac… John C Klensin
- Re: [111attendees] So, what are jabber scribes ac… Mirja Kuehlewind
- Re: [111attendees] So, what are jabber scribes ac… Mirja Kuehlewind
- Re: [111attendees] So, what are jabber scribes ac… Robert Moskowitz
- Re: [111attendees] So, what are jabber scribes ac… John C Klensin
- Re: [111attendees] So, what are jabber scribes ac… Jay Daley
- Re: [111attendees] So, what are jabber scribes ac… Carsten Bormann
- Re: [111attendees] So, what are jabber scribes ac… Jay Daley
- Re: [111attendees] So, what are jabber scribes ac… Salz, Rich
- Re: [111attendees] So, what are jabber scribes ac… Carsten Bormann
- Re: [111attendees] So, what are jabber scribes ac… John Levine
- Re: [111attendees] So, what are jabber scribes ac… John C Klensin
- Re: [111attendees] So, what are jabber scribes ac… Jay Daley
- Re: [111attendees] So, what are jabber scribes ac… Toerless Eckert
- [111attendees] Re: So, what are jabber scribes ac… Bron Gondwana
- Re: [111attendees] So, what are jabber scribes ac… Carsten Bormann
- Re: [111attendees] Re: So, what are jabber scribe… Jay Daley
- Re: [111attendees] So, what are jabber scribes ac… Jay Daley
- Re: [111attendees] So, what are jabber scribes ac… Toerless Eckert
- Re: [111attendees] So, what are jabber scribes ac… John R. Levine
- Re: [111attendees] So, what are jabber scribes ac… Carsten Bormann
- Re: [111attendees] So, what are jabber scribes ac… Toerless Eckert
- Re: [111attendees] So, what are jabber scribes ac… Vittorio Bertola
- Re: [111attendees] So, what are jabber scribes ac… Robert Moskowitz