Re: [111attendees] [Tools-discuss] Positive observations and proposals for improvements to Meetecho (was: Re: Re: So, what are jabber scribes actually doing, these days?)

gang Antgam <antgamgang@gmail.com> Mon, 02 August 2021 22:29 UTC

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From: gang Antgam <antgamgang@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2021 02:58:54 +0430
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To: Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>
Cc: Bron Gondwana <brong@fastmailteam.com>, 111attendees@ietf.org, tools-discuss <tools-discuss@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [111attendees] [Tools-discuss] Positive observations and proposals for improvements to Meetecho (was: Re: Re: So, what are jabber scribes actually doing, these days?)
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در تاریخ شنبه ۳۱ ژوئیهٔ ۲۰۲۱،‏ ۱:۴۵ Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com> نوشت:

>
>
> On Fri, Jul 30, 2021 at 2:03 PM Bron Gondwana <brong@fastmailteam.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Ooh, we're going a full "suggestions for meetecho" thread?  I'd like to
>> propose some things!
>>
>> *that we replace the current "raise hands" tool:*
>>
>> *... *which is based on an expired draft which isn't going to be
>> refreshed - with a better tool that allows the chairs to:
>>
>> a) label each option
>> b) have more than 2 options (max 9 maybe)
>> c) select between "choose one" and "choose N" modes (checkbox vs radio
>> button)
>>
>> ... and which appears IN PLACE of the slides when enabled, so that
>> meeting participants don't have to navigate to a separate tab to interact.
>>
>> More generally, it's too easy for some participants to be lost on
>> different tabs where they can't see the slides.  The multiple views where
>> you can see individual talking heads in more detail are not actually
>> valuable I don't think - if slides are showing they should be the bulk of
>> the screen because they need to be read - and if a poll is showing then for
>> sure it should be taking over the screen.
>>
>
> EKR Raises Hand.
>
>
> *a "temporary mute" mode that keeps the audio stream open:*
>>
>> This is still an issue for me.  I often mute myself while chairing so I
>> can take notes without my keyboard sound interrupting the chat - but it
>> means that I can't easily respond to somebody because the rejigging of the
>> audio channel not only creates a hiccup in the incoming audio feed which
>> means I might miss something someone says, but it also creates enough of a
>> delay that by the time I could have responded the other party's mental
>> state has moved on.
>>
>> Timing is really important in conversation and we're already fighting
>> with the quarter second delay imposed by the size of the planet.
>> Additional delay makes it unwieldy.
>>
>
> Note that this is a respect in which Meetecho is unusual. Most other VC
> systems which I am familiar with just stop sending on the track but keep
> the microphone open rather than dropping the media stream and re-calling
> getUserMedia().
>
> To your list, I would add auto-unmuting (and even more importantly,
> muting) when people enter and exit the head of the queue. This would remove
> a lot of goofy behavior.
>
> -Ekr
>
>
>
>
> *allow multiple connections by the same person to the same session:*
>>
>> I have multiple times wanted to switch device temporarily - from my
>> desktop computer to a phone / ipad so I can temporarily move to another
>> location while continuing to follow a meeting.  Multiple connection support
>> would mean I could switch over without a break.
>>
>> Sure it could be abused by people "sharing" a login, but that would be
>> pretty obvious if both parties tried to participate, and given that we
>> allow fee waivers anyway, it's unlikely to be abused significantly.  Sure
>> there are Jabber naming issues, but we can avoid that by giving each jabber
>> name with a serial number (which I believe already happens now?)
>>
>> ...
>>
>> I've already written these up separately in the past, but:
>>
>> *information about who is speaking in the same place as video feeds*
>>
>> See my previous email :)  Basically the "participant list" should just be
>> an ordered list of participants and only needs to be switched to when
>> seeing who is in the call or opening an individual message to them (and
>> people don't get moved out of order when they're sending something).  The
>> "who is sending something" list should be all together with the video, and
>> chairs pinned even if they're sending nothing right now.
>>
>> Along with visual indicators of "currently sending audio" on people so we
>> know who of those with their audio channel open are currently speaking,
>> this makes it easier to look in one place to see the source of all sound,
>> and eyes can generally flit between the right hand side (video and audio
>> indicators) and the slides, without needing to also track via the
>> participant list.
>>
>> *flexible "assign chair"**:*
>>
>> This one hasn't come up in practice, but the chairs for meetings are
>> pre-assigned from datatracker.  It would be great for ADs and the meetecho
>> reps in each meeting to be able to upgrade anybody to a chair role or
>> remove a chair role with a simple click.
>>
>> In real rooms, anyone can go sit in the chair at the front of the room,
>> and it's not abused because of social convention.  I believe that we can
>> map that to this virtual space and still have it work sensibly.  People
>> won't take the chair unless there's a legitimate reason to do it, and so
>> long as it's logged - if someone does consistently abuse it we have
>> processes to eject them from the IETF for misbehaviour.
>>
>> This has become less important with the ability for individuals to turn
>> on both audio and video themselves, so the chair is going less busywork
>> just approving access, but it would be good to make it possible for someone
>> else to step into the chair if the regular chairs are unable to attend or
>> lose network, rather than making the meeting less able to run.
>>
>> Bron.
>>
>> On Sat, Jul 31, 2021, at 05:38, Meetecho IETF support wrote:
>>
>> All,
>>
>> chiming in just to say that we at Meetecho appreciate and value your
>> feedback. We'll definitely take it into account when developing the
>> future releases of the platform. We'll provide comments on the points
>> raised as soon as we get the chance to parse them, i.e., when the
>> meeting is over.
>>
>> Also, I'm cc'ing tools-discuss@ietf.org and setting the reply-to header
>> to that list as well, as that's the right place to discuss enhancements
>> and provide feedback that would be easier for us to collect.
>>
>> Best,
>> Alessandro
>>
>> Il 30/07/21 19:37, Spencer Dawkins at IETF ha scritto:
>> > I should have changed the Subject a LONG time ago! But this thread has
>> > morphed into helpful observations and suggestions, so, if I might add a
>> > couple of things ...
>> >
>> > I agree that Meetecho has been improving (and just for fun, the
>> Meetecho
>> > guys were participants in the MEDIACTL session I was co-chairing in
>> > Hiroshima at IETF 76 in November 2009, and they roped in a team member
>> > from Italy during the discussion using whatever the toolset was back
>> > then, so many of you have no idea how MUCH they've improved 😀).
>> >
>> > I see that we've already mentioned detaching the chat window, and
>> > usually I remember that we can detach the chat by Tuesday of each IETF
>> > meeting week at the latest, which is almost certainly a result of not
>> > having THAT much experience with Meetecho during the four months
>> between
>> > meetings. Now that we can use Meetecho for interim meetings, that will
>> > help me remember more clearly, so good there, too.
>> >
>> > The one thing I've noticed this week is how difficult it is to figure
>> > out who is speaking if they aren't sending video, and there's a long
>> > list of people in the queue. The suggestion to move the speakers above
>> > the queue would improve that, and so would simply displaying the active
>> > speaker names in the screen space where their video would have gone, if
>> > the person had been sending video.One reason that matters, is that it's
>> > helpful for everyone to get the speaker's name right in the minutes.
>> > That's not just for new attendees, I'm starting to forget what people
>> > sound like, unless I'm talking to them regularly, or they have a very
>> > distinctive speech pattern, so I've definitely depending on seeing
>> names
>> > when I'm taking minutes. .
>> >
>> > The one thing I was thinking about, as I read through this thread, was
>> > that we are kinda *not *talking about what the IETF thinks the target
>> > audience for our conferencing tool is.
>> >
>> >   * For probably the last couple of IETFs, I have a GREAT setup for
>> >     remote participation (my laptop screen, plus two 25-inch monitors).
>> >     But I do have tiled windows on all three screens.
>> >   * If we think people who can't throw a few hundred dollars at monitor
>> >     screens are part of our target audience, that's worth noting.
>> >   * If we think we're going to have hybrid meetings, in at least some
>> >     scenarios, it's going to be good to use Meetecho in the conference
>> >     rooms (especially if we need to be distancing, so more spread out,
>> >     front to back in the conference rooms).
>> >   * Even if we aren't doing hybrid meetings, I've participated in some
>> >     working group meetings from my hotel room, but I wasn't tryng to
>> >     co-chair a meeting, or even to present at a meeting.
>> >   * When Michael Richardson and I talked to the Cellar working group
>> >     participants about switching to Meetecho for our (monthy) interims,
>> >     the first question we got was, "is there an iOS/Adroid client?" I
>> >     haven't checked Meetecho on my phone in years, but I'd bet offhand
>> >     that (1) it would work, but (2) it might not be as easy to use as
>> >     some other conferencing systems, on those devices. Do people have
>> >     experience with that?
>> >
>> > I'll let you folks continue to share these positive observations and
>> > proposals. Make Good Choices, of course.
>> >
>> > Best,
>> >
>> > Spencer
>> >
>> > On Thu, Jul 29, 2021 at 6:15 PM Jay Daley <jay@ietf.org
>> > <mailto:jay@ietf.org>> wrote:
>> >
>> >     Thanks Bron.  Personally I think that’s a great usability adjustment
>> >     and will forward to the Meetecho team for them to consider.
>> >
>> >     Jay
>> >
>> >      > On 30/07/2021, at 10:58 AM, Bron Gondwana <
>> brong@fastmailteam.com
>> >     <mailto:brong@fastmailteam.com>> wrote:
>> >      >
>> >      > On Fri, Jul 30, 2021, at 05:21, Jay Daley wrote:
>> >      >> No we have absolutely not pushed Meetecho into being "just a
>> >     contractor", they are a valued partner and we work very well
>> >     together.  If you have any doubts about that then ask them directly.
>> >      >>
>> >      >> It is disappointing that you have escalated a personal concern
>> >     that you have with our services into such a strong criticism when
>> >     that is entirely unsupported by any evidence.
>> >      >
>> >      > Jay, I agree with your sentiment here - this attitude to Meetecho
>> >     is counterproductive.  They've done great work for the last couple
>> >     of IETFs and the experience is improving each time.  I have
>> >     particularly appreciated the embedded slide management, and I'm sure
>> >     that will be even better next time too.
>> >      >
>> >      > Regarding the specific interface issues that remain, I do think
>> >     there's a question of "where do we propose improvements in a way
>> >     that will be noticed"?  I've seen the suggestion made very many
>> >     times that the "speaker" area (where the video shows) should have
>> >     additional lines for each person sending anything, rather than that
>> >     information being at the top of the participant list.  This is much
>> >     more like the experience with other chat systems, for example Zoom
>> >     shows either a photo or a blank item for somebody who isn't
>> >     currently sending video, but they're otherwise treated "the same" as
>> >     a person sending video in terms of real-estate and where to look for
>> >     their presence by default.
>> >      >
>> >      > Right now with meetecho, my eyes are normally at the video are
>> >     when people are speaking, but if a non-video person is speaking I
>> >     need to look across to the other side of the screen to see the audio
>> >     indication.
>> >      >
>> >      > And as was also suggested in this thread, you can't scroll the
>> >     participant list to find someone to chat to, because they jump to
>> >     the top when they are sending, then back to alphabetical position.
>> >     This is also a usability pain.  Separating "the list of
>> >     participants" (which wouldn't move about) and "the list of people
>> >     sending something" with the video and audio indications being
>> >     together in one place would be a significant improvement.  And as an
>> >     additional benefit, when you're looking at the chat window, you
>> >     would still be able to see all the details of who is sending
>> >     (including yourself - if you're sending then the indicator of your
>> >     own audio should be the same as the indicator of everyone else's
>> >     audio, rather than being in yet a third location up under your own
>> >     name).
>> >      >
>> >      > <image.png>
>> >      > So those two names would appear in the right hand side, and also
>> >     still have their name in the participant list, and the video feeds
>> >     would each have a "here's what's being sent".  Chairs would always
>> >     have a presence on the right, with whatever they were currently
>> >     sending - and the "participants" tab would only have the list of
>> >     participants, and not be a place you needed to go to see activity,
>> >     so you could mostly keep the chat tab open.
>> >      >
>> >      > Bron.
>> >      >
>> >      >
>> >      > --
>> >      >   Bron Gondwana, CEO, Fastmail Pty Ltd
>> >      > brong@fastmailteam.com <mailto:brong@fastmailteam.com>
>> >      >
>> >      >
>> >      > --
>> >      > 111attendees mailing list
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>> >
>> >     --
>> >     Jay Daley
>> >     IETF Executive Director
>> >     jay@ietf.org <mailto:jay@ietf.org>
>> >
>> >     --
>> >     111attendees mailing list
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>> >
>> >
>>
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>>
>> --
>>   Bron Gondwana, CEO, Fastmail Pty Ltd
>>   brong@fastmailteam.com
>>
>>
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