From nobody Mon Aug 2 15:26:38 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: 111attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: 111attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C029B3A1F47; Mon, 2 Aug 2021 15:26:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id O4536hmuJdIk; Mon, 2 Aug 2021 15:26:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ed1-x52d.google.com (mail-ed1-x52d.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::52d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C6BBA3A1F31; Mon, 2 Aug 2021 15:26:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ed1-x52d.google.com with SMTP id y12so26565759edo.6; Mon, 02 Aug 2021 15:26:20 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=iJIaXQtNgTRhhfKotS5A6DDTIlzPQaMA3kMdoNYQN0Q=; b=O26cWD/ny94x8w/j3S3836OJ/xEUcHFJNVvw4a1F5GfaD9X009l6JiORSrzSUIQ2iX zmL605u9nN2MU7Euz4lgwAK3aEYsY6cLwJbH7Hbbtx92y5zyZlQoT5v6sqy9FH7Gkx1b 6scuTfP7EvIPYjkqJkIO69q4tC+dhT5DzA8eMCPPaySd5w6mar+xDFea0QE+3tmYff5c FrS5Whxw2bSxIwX2GcIULWIKDQiv+1mASIvhVZJPs10Gbvt4Z05gAOkwuCy194o+JZOD Q9iI/DKEzDkUDi89XHxUroR/2Wn6qSQ9yqKIQHMHYoK8/zjJcx7B9ItpRozf2h7+D5qR +nng== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=iJIaXQtNgTRhhfKotS5A6DDTIlzPQaMA3kMdoNYQN0Q=; b=Qknq7RgR5TSXRIVNZACA868KUBtDb2sGHhz5Skm+9epd89ozX7hr58Txm30/lOAyQO lCabpcGbHHREX0p/R4cscHJ4SrsKa811cUFlkrygStcOkqFenRucNrzPoWiA0YQXNuWs dL0E6xpQEBAmBkXWYMJF9/9keW3tMRX4mws9s9JQMxXp0IohvgbNKptOom3fAvBk4Mv6 zRPc0BfVCeIsOCceMMn1bLnhfFmo95Bkey2qtznYmnWGPXyaAZlcC7o88C1elpX+P1Qp q7Plw35d3DUc/pEvtVFoV/11PYtAJSaCyFlwzNeKD5+q30pYK8KZu4U7yLkNf+E9TjEJ 0fag== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531ZyB65eXJxOsvcUPU9mN4WIDCf1bbZz4AMQVgHGnsegv0/G9nT ijEncHUP5HqrAkub7uRPUXWnaSMTkz4rMzNeMkk= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJz1chtygAteNWkv3Ff6XjqH2LYHO9v9EbgWrxzMt2F3Zde4MFazVWwSn9+MH4cgmRtSaJJ2HWFhMv8hKk2JYUc= X-Received: by 2002:aa7:cac6:: with SMTP id l6mr1024549edt.37.1627943178427; Mon, 02 Aug 2021 15:26:18 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <4268651f-6bd7-10ce-6ed8-a758bd956062@meetecho.com> <99ae28be-dd15-4018-bccc-a1f61ce19e47@dogfood.fastmail.com> <27783.1627850234@localhost> In-Reply-To: <27783.1627850234@localhost> From: gang Antgam Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2021 02:56:06 +0430 Message-ID: To: Michael Richardson Cc: Bron Gondwana , 111attendees@ietf.org, tools-discuss@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000dd608005c89b0ec2" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [111attendees] [Tools-discuss] Positive observations and proposals for improvements to Meetecho (was: Re: Re: So, what are jabber scribes actually doing, these days?) X-BeenThere: 111attendees@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for IETF 111 attendees <111attendees.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2021 22:26:36 -0000 --000000000000dd608005c89b0ec2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =D8=AF=D8=B1 =D8=AA=D8=A7=D8=B1=DB=8C=D8=AE =D8=AF=D9=88=D8=B4=D9=86=D8=A8= =D9=87 =DB=B2 =D8=A7=D9=88=D8=AA =DB=B2=DB=B0=DB=B2=DB=B1=D8=8C=E2=80=8F = =DB=B1:=DB=B0=DB=B7 Michael Richardson =D9=86=D9=88=D8=B4=D8=AA: > > Bron Gondwana wrote: > > *a "temporary mute" mode that keeps the audio stream open:* > > > This is still an issue for me. I often mute myself while chairing > so I > > can take notes without my keyboard sound interrupting the chat - bu= t > it > > means that I can't easily respond to somebody because the rejigging > of > > the audio channel not only creates a hiccup in the incoming audio > feed > > which means I might miss something someone says, but it also create= s > > enough of a delay that by the time I could have responded the other > > party's mental state has moved on. > > Yes, the 3s on/off latency on the audio is a problem. > So one should use a local mute instead, which of course, then causes > confusion. > > > Timing is really important in conversation and we're already fighti= ng > > with the quarter second delay imposed by the size of the planet. > > Additional delay makes it unwieldy. > > Ah... I know of a genetically spliced lab mouse with a plan to reduce the > size of the planet. > > > *allow multiple connections by the same person to the same session:= * > > > I have multiple times wanted to switch device temporarily - from my > > desktop computer to a phone / ipad so I can temporarily move to > another > > location while continuing to follow a meeting. Multiple connection > > support would mean I could switch over without a break. > > It seems like a stretch requirement, but I also know that some chairs wan= t > a > second laptop so that they can see whether slides are really advancing. > What I don't understand is, 16 months into pandemic, and 10 years into > screen > sharing, how it is that PPT people don't understand that they have to "F5= " > before they share. > > > Sure it could be abused by people "sharing" a login, but that would > be > > pretty obvious if both parties tried to participate, and given that > we > > allow fee waivers anyway, it's unlikely to be abused significantly. > > Sure there are Jabber naming issues, but we can avoid that by givin= g > > each jabber name with a serial number (which I believe already > happens > > now?) > > Yes. Actually, the ephermalness of the jabber names annoys me, as I can't > message people after they have left. > > > *information about who is speaking in the same place as video feeds= * > > The video image does do the yellow square when they are speaking. > > > See my previous email :) Basically the "participant list" should > just > > be an ordered list of participants and only needs to be switched to > > when seeing who is in the call or opening an individual message to > them > > (and people don't get moved out of order when they're sending > > something). The "who is sending something" list should be all > together > > with the video, and chairs pinned even if they're sending nothing > right > > now. > > I think that I need a picture. > As my meetecho windows are more vertical than horizontal, I'd also like t= o > be > able to move the video boxes to be under the slides. > see: https://www.sandelman.ca/mcr/IETF111-virtual-SFO-two-sessions.png > > > Along with visual indicators of "currently sending audio" on people > so > > we know who of those with their audio channel open are currently > > speaking, this makes it easier to look in one place to see the sour= ce > > of all sound, and eyes can generally flit between the right hand si= de > > (video and audio indicators) and the slides, without needing to als= o > > track via the participant list. > > I think that it would also work better for the youtube recording. > > > *flexible "assign chair"**:* > > > This one hasn't come up in practice, but the chairs for meetings ar= e > > pre-assigned from datatracker. It would be great for ADs and the > > meetecho reps in each meeting to be able to upgrade anybody to a > chair > > role or remove a chair role with a simple click. > > That's a good idea. > And with that power, they should be able to advance slides, no matter who > activated them. > > > This has become less important with the ability for individuals to > turn > > on both audio and video themselves, so the chair is going less > busywork > > just approving access, but it would be good to make it possible for > > someone else to step into the chair if the regular chairs are unabl= e > to > > attend or lose network, rather than making the meeting less able to > > run. > > I'd like the chair to be able to pre-authorize sharing and slides. > Actually, the way I'd implement is that the chair(s) just get to decide w= ho > of the possibly many screen-sharing/slides that are occuring, who is > actually > shared. > > That lets people (a) test their setup in advance of their slot, > (b) reduce the time to switch. > > -- > ] Never tell me the odds! | ipv6 mesh > networks [ > ] Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works | IoT > architect [ > ] mcr@sandelman.ca http://www.sandelman.ca/ | ruby on > rails [ > > > -- > Michael Richardson . o O ( IPv6 I=C3=B8T consul= ting ) > Sandelman Software Works Inc, Ottawa and Worldwide > > > > > -- > 111attendees mailing list > 111attendees@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/111attendees > --000000000000dd608005c89b0ec2 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

=D8=AF=D8=B1 =D8=AA=D8=A7=D8=B1=DB=8C=D8=AE =D8=AF=D9=88= =D8=B4=D9=86=D8=A8=D9=87 =DB=B2 =D8=A7=D9=88=D8=AA =DB=B2=DB=B0=DB=B2=DB=B1= =D8=8C=E2=80=8F =DB=B1:=DB=B0=DB=B7 Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca> =D9=86=D9=88=D8=B4= =D8=AA:

Bron Gondwana <brong@fastmailteam.com> wrote:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > *a "temporary mute" mode that keeps the audio = stream open:*

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > This is still an issue for me.=C2=A0 I often mute myself= while chairing so I
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > can take notes without my keyboard sound interrupting th= e chat - but it
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > means that I can't easily respond to somebody becaus= e the rejigging of
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > the audio channel not only creates a hiccup in the incom= ing audio feed
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > which means I might miss something someone says, but it = also creates
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > enough of a delay that by the time I could have responde= d the other
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > party's mental state has moved on.

Yes, the 3s on/off latency on the audio is a problem.
So one should use a local mute instead, which of course, then causes confus= ion.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Timing is really important in conversation and we're= already fighting
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > with the quarter second delay imposed by the size of the= planet.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Additional delay makes it unwieldy.

Ah... I know of a genetically spliced lab mouse with a plan to reduce the s= ize of the planet.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > *allow multiple connections by the same person to the sa= me session:*

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > I have multiple times wanted to switch device temporaril= y - from my
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > desktop computer to a phone / ipad so I can temporarily = move to another
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > location while continuing to follow a meeting.=C2=A0 Mul= tiple connection
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > support would mean I could switch over without a break.<= br>
It seems like a stretch requirement, but I also know that some chairs want = a
second laptop so that they can see whether slides are really advancing.
What I don't understand is, 16 months into pandemic, and 10 years into = screen
sharing, how it is that PPT people don't understand that they have to &= quot;F5"
before they share.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Sure it could be abused by people "sharing" a = login, but that would be
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > pretty obvious if both parties tried to participate, and= given that we
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > allow fee waivers anyway, it's unlikely to be abused= significantly.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Sure there are Jabber naming issues, but we can avoid th= at by giving
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > each jabber name with a serial number (which I believe a= lready happens
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > now?)

Yes. Actually, the ephermalness of the jabber names annoys me, as I can'= ;t
message people after they have left.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > *information about who is speaking in the same place as = video feeds*

The video image does do the yellow square when they are speaking.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > See my previous email :)=C2=A0 Basically the "parti= cipant list" should just
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > be an ordered list of participants and only needs to be = switched to
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > when seeing who is in the call or opening an individual = message to them
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > (and people don't get moved out of order when they&#= 39;re sending
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > something).=C2=A0 The "who is sending something&quo= t; list should be all together
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > with the video, and chairs pinned even if they're se= nding nothing right
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > now.

I think that I need a picture.
As my meetecho windows are more vertical than horizontal, I'd also like= to be
able to move the video boxes to be under the slides.
see:=C2=A0 https://www.s= andelman.ca/mcr/IETF111-virtual-SFO-two-sessions.png

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Along with visual indicators of "currently sending = audio" on people so
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > we know who of those with their audio channel open are c= urrently
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > speaking, this makes it easier to look in one place to s= ee the source
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > of all sound, and eyes can generally flit between the ri= ght hand side
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > (video and audio indicators) and the slides, without nee= ding to also
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > track via the participant list.

I think that it would also work better for the youtube recording.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > *flexible "assign chair"**:*

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > This one hasn't come up in practice, but the chairs = for meetings are
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > pre-assigned from datatracker.=C2=A0 It would be great f= or ADs and the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > meetecho reps in each meeting to be able to upgrade anyb= ody to a chair
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > role or remove a chair role with a simple click.

That's a good idea.
And with that power, they should be able to advance slides, no matter who activated them.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > This has become less important with the ability for indi= viduals to turn
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > on both audio and video themselves, so the chair is goin= g less busywork
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > just approving access, but it would be good to make it p= ossible for
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > someone else to step into the chair if the regular chair= s are unable to
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > attend or lose network, rather than making the meeting l= ess able to
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > run.

I'd like the chair to be able to pre-authorize sharing and slides.
Actually, the way I'd implement is that the chair(s) just get to decide= who
of the possibly many screen-sharing/slides that are occuring, who is actual= ly
shared.

That lets people (a) test their setup in advance of their slot,
(b) reduce the time to switch.

--
]=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Never tell me the o= dds!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| ipv6 me= sh networks [
]=C2=A0 =C2=A0Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 |=C2=A0 =C2=A0 IoT architect=C2=A0 =C2=A0[
]=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0mcr@sandelman.ca=C2=A0 http://www.sandelma= n.ca/=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 |=C2=A0 =C2=A0ruby on rails=C2=A0 =C2= =A0 [


--
Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>=C2=A0 =C2=A0. o O= ( IPv6 I=C3=B8T consulting )
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Sandelman Software Works Inc, Otta= wa and Worldwide




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