Re: [3gpp-ietf-coord] IETF - 3GPP coordination meeting at IETF 116

[Spencer Dawkins at IETF <[e-mail]>]

Hi, Charles (and others, but especially Lionel),

On Wed, Mar 29, 2023 at 11:13 AM Charles Eckel (eckelcu) <[e-mail]>
wrote:

> Hi Spencer,
>
> Thanks for raising this topic. I view the coordination call we had
> yesterday as an example of a 3rd way for working together. I think it would
> be great to do something similar at 3GPP meetings, even if there need to be
> several such sessions in order to hit every group. Periodic conference
> calls not tied to any IETF or 3GPP meeting is also possible.
>

I applaud the enthusiasm for revising RFC 3113. I note that while I was on
the IAB (2010-2013), we basically rewrote the governing document for IEEE
802-IETF coordination (was RFC 4441
<https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc4441/>, is now  RFC 7241
<https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc7241/>), and that was very valuable
for both organizations. This is excellent.

Re: third ways ...  Magnus grabbed me as we left the meeting room this
week, and said "Spencer, remember that liaisons are consensus documents in
both organizations", which I did remember, but I did not mention in my
previous note. We had a short chat, and I realized I was conflating two
things:

   - what the two organizations can do, to lower the Round Trip Times for
   formal liaisons and replies between the two organizations - and other
   people are the experts about 3GPP process, but I wonder about optimizations
   such as allowing 3GPP TSGs and working groups to agree on liaison and reply
   text via e-mail between formal meetings, and
   - how the two organizations can communicate informally, more
   effectively. - noting that the discussion we had this week was both
   informal and helpful.

The second thing matters more than the first.

For example, I'd invite people to think about:

   - In addition to the regularly-scheduled face-to-face+remote
   participation meetings we schedule during IETF meetings, scheduling a
   teleconference at roughly the midpoint between two IETF meetings, so that
   long-lived problems are more likely to be discussed sooner, and
   - What each organization wishes more people at the other organization
   knew (this week, I heard "IETF WG chair training for handling liaisons",
   and "3GPP folks becoming more comfortable about IANA requests"(*).)

But other people have more experience with the relationship between the two
organizations, and can likely make excellent suggestions.

Best,

Spencer

(*) In my experience, 3GPPP's IETF Dependencies topic is less contentious
than it has been in the past, but IANA requests have become more
contentious. I recently started participating in 3GPP SA4, and discovered
at a recent meeting that I was one of only two or three people in the room
who understood what IANA expected to receive - and none of us were authors
of the 3GPP contribution containing the IANA request. Trying to wordsmith
an IANA request in a 3GPP meeting isn't the best way to help people get
IANA requests right!

I had a look at RFC 3113 before throwing my hat in the ring to be the IETF
> liaison manager to 3GPP and again in prep for this meeting. It was helpful,
> but some things have definitely changed and an update would be helpful.
> While admittedly not high on my todo list coming into this meeting, your
> note combined with the fact that I find myself learning many things about
> this collaboration effort by living it here in Yokohama makes me think now
> if a great time to start updating it. We can also experiment with your
> suggested 3rd way of collaborating, and we can document things as we find
> things that seem to work well.
>
> If anyone has a work in progress update to RFC 3113 or has the drive the
> create one before I do, please let me know.
>
> Thanks again,
> Charles
>
> On Mar 28, 2023, at 11:15 AM, Spencer Dawkins at IETF <
> [e-mail]> wrote:
>
> Hi, Charles and Lionel,
>
> I wouldn't think of suggesting this as a topic for a meeting that starts
> in less than 15 minutes, but I do wonder if is possible to imagine (in
> 2023) some way for our two organizations to communicate, cooperate, and
> collaborate, in a way that is
>
>    - *more formal* than telling participants in each organization that
>    they should also participate in the other organization, and seeing what
>    happens, but
>    - *less formal* than sending liaisons between the two organizations,
>    which the IETF can send and respond to with e-mail approval, but 3GPP
>    cannot, only agreeing to send and reply to liaisons at TSG meetings.
>
> To be clear, I'm not asking about a *change *to these two primary ways of
> coordination. I'm asking about introducing a third way of coordination.
>
> It might be that neither organization is ready for that, but it * IS *2023,
> so I thought I'd ask. If RFC 3113
> <https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc3113>is still the governing
> document for our relationship, it was published in 2001. A lot of things
> have changed since then, and even if RFC 3113 was perfect in 2001, perhaps
> we can do better on this specific point.
>
> As I said, I'm not proposing this as a topic for discussion today, but
> perhaps this mailing list is an appropriate place to share thoughts between
> now and IETF 117.
>
> Best,
>
> Spencer
>
> On Mon, Mar 27, 2023 at 7:25 PM Charles Eckel (eckelcu) <eckelcu=
> [e-mail]> wrote:
>
>> Hi All,
>>
>> We have updated the agenda as follows:
>>
>>    - Round table
>>    - Ongoing LS
>>       - Response to 3GPP SA2 LS on 3GPP 5G System acting as a
>>       <https://datatracker.ietf.org/liaison/1816/>DetNet
>>       <https://datatracker.ietf.org/liaison/1816/> node
>>       <https://datatracker.ietf.org/liaison/1816/>
>>       - LS on need for modeling
>>       <https://datatracker.ietf.org/liaison/1818/>isInvariant
>>       <https://datatracker.ietf.org/liaison/1818/> and
>>       <https://datatracker.ietf.org/liaison/1818/>SystemCreated
>>       <https://datatracker.ietf.org/liaison/1818/> in YANG
>>       <https://datatracker.ietf.org/liaison/1818/>
>>       - Updated LS to 3GPP regarding SCTP-AUTH and DTLS
>>       <https://datatracker.ietf.org/liaison/1806/>
>>       - Improving the handling of LS exchanged between IETF and 3GPP
>>    - Ongoing IANA action
>>    - Status of the 3GPP-IETF dependencies
>>    - 3GPP Release Roadmap (informational)
>>    - AoB
>>
>>
>> Attached are slides to aid our discussion. We look forward to seeing
>> everyone tomorrow.
>>
>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/116/agenda?filters=ietf-3gpp-coordination
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Charles and Lionel
>>
>>
>> On Mar 17, 2023, at 7:05 AM, Charles Eckel (eckelcu) <[e-mail]>
>> wrote:
>>
>> Hi Everyone,
>>
>> We will have an IETF - 3GPP coordination meeting at IETF 116 on Tuesday
>> during the lunch break (11:30 - 13:00).
>> For those attending in person, we will be meeting in G318
>> <https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/116/floor-plan?room=g318> (3rd
>> floor). Lunch will be provided.
>> Those attending remotely can join via Webex. Sorry, but no time zone
>> appropriate meal provided in this scenario.
>>
>>
>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/116/agenda?filters=ietf-3gpp-coordination
>>
>> The currently planned agenda for our meeting is as follows:
>>
>>    - Roundtable discussion
>>    - Status of the 3GPP-IETF dependencies
>>    - Ongoing IANA action
>>    - Incoming/Outgoing LSs
>>    - AoB
>>
>> Please feel free to suggest additional agenda items.
>> We look forward to meeting with you during IETF 116.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Charles and Lionel
>>
>>
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>
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