Re: [6gip] 6G in 3GPP?
David Lake <d.lake@surrey.ac.uk> Fri, 15 January 2021 13:29 UTC
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From: David Lake <d.lake@surrey.ac.uk>
To: John Grant <j@ninetiles.com>, "6gip@ietf.org" <6gip@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [6gip] 6G in 3GPP?
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Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2021 13:29:50 +0000
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/6gip/1CKiJ7Z1oWg3PJKhg7NLuXDyIMo>
Subject: Re: [6gip] 6G in 3GPP?
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Point 1 - Yes, but the difference between the controller in a cellular network and distributed control of routing (as we currently do) is that cellular network also admits/denies services and maintains quality/outcome. Despite having tried for decades we've failed to build any sort of admission control into the Internet which is fine all the time you just carry on over-providing bandwidth but I think the wheels have come off that truck and we now need to carefully and efficiently manage every element. I don't NEED 1Gbit/s - what I need is 510kbit/s but I need it guaranteed between any x points when I need it - there ought to be a construct where I can buy that service and then have the various actors compensated for doing exactly that. Point 2 - Yes. JackTrip uses UDP (although not RDP). JackTrip uses raw PCM in UDP with buffer sizes configurable as low as 20 Bytes. The whole issue of Network Music Performance is a very hot-topic in audio engineering as you can probably imagine. The maximum figure that musicians can cope with in terms of real latency (called the M2E "Mouth to Ear" in other words the total delay between making a sound at one end and hearing it at the other) is 24ms. This is considerably lower that humans can manage for speech is about 100ms. It makes for interesting issues - USB, for example, only polls every 1ms so if you have a USB connected mic and speak, that could be 2-4ms of your budget lost already. DACs can add as much as 5ms. That is 14ms lost before you've even put the packet on the wire. One "technique" that much of the current NMP software uses to get round the issues of packet loss is exactly what we'd rather they didn't - send the packet more than once! David -----Original Message----- From: 6gip <6gip-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of John Grant Sent: 15 January 2021 13:01 To: 6gip@ietf.org Subject: Re: [6gip] 6G in 3GPP? On 15/01/2021 10:50, David Lake wrote: > Could you go point-to-point in cellular networks? Well, yes, but you'd have to work out how to allocate the VERY expensive spectrum and deliver against tight SLAs for applications. That then means you'd need some kind of central controller monitoring all the possible connections and allocating resources as-needed. Not sure about that; it should be possible to have a rather more distributed control of routing, though probably not with IP networks. Re the two pianos, were you using RTP/UDP? Some time ago I came across someone who was putting the audio data in Ping packets and got much lower latency. Speed of light is only one of many contributors to latency; see also https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flola.conts.it%2F&data=04%7C01%7Cd.lake%40surrey.ac.uk%7Cd309a70a506440a2a70908d8b955a9cf%7C6b902693107440aa9e21d89446a2ebb5%7C0%7C0%7C637463124860235172%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=6M3N7A169qspoLjkda25qKmGTfCeexVEUcU2VUahMag%3D&reserved=0 -- John Grant Nine Tiles, Cambridge, England +44 1223 862599 and +44 1223 511455 https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.etsi.org%2Ftechnologies%2Fnon-ip-networking&data=04%7C01%7Cd.lake%40surrey.ac.uk%7Cd309a70a506440a2a70908d8b955a9cf%7C6b902693107440aa9e21d89446a2ebb5%7C0%7C0%7C637463124860245159%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=F3UpyD0kgE4HKKNe5mYNtRUZ%2B98DsZUL5Pu3DrrpbXM%3D&reserved=0 https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ninetiles.com%2F&data=04%7C01%7Cd.lake%40surrey.ac.uk%7Cd309a70a506440a2a70908d8b955a9cf%7C6b902693107440aa9e21d89446a2ebb5%7C0%7C0%7C637463124860245159%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=BKNdDS3nxNEibPgRj9vSoBFSwVq%2Boc0YyOuSUVMSANs%3D&reserved=0 -- This email has been checked for viruses by AVG. https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.avg.com%2F&data=04%7C01%7Cd.lake%40surrey.ac.uk%7Cd309a70a506440a2a70908d8b955a9cf%7C6b902693107440aa9e21d89446a2ebb5%7C0%7C0%7C637463124860245159%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=pSprOsQMDrZRBifwvMuyriqWfoO0sCIoEeatjCLFEnE%3D&reserved=0 -- 6gip mailing list 6gip@ietf.org https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ietf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2F6gip&data=04%7C01%7Cd.lake%40surrey.ac.uk%7Cd309a70a506440a2a70908d8b955a9cf%7C6b902693107440aa9e21d89446a2ebb5%7C0%7C0%7C637463124860245159%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=ebdHN0Zm1KujKMHF5NFsphhSOAtJqDdgbOMvghaaMl8%3D&reserved=0
- [6gip] 6G in 3GPP? Flinck, Hannu (Nokia - FI/Espoo)
- Re: [6gip] 6G in 3GPP? Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: [6gip] 6G in 3GPP? - timeline Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: [6gip] 6G in 3GPP? Stefan Alfredsson
- Re: [6gip] 6G in 3GPP? Flinck, Hannu (Nokia - FI/Espoo)
- Re: [6gip] 6G in 3GPP? Sri Gundavelli (sgundave)
- Re: [6gip] 6G in 3GPP? John Grant
- Re: [6gip] 6G in 3GPP? Kaippallimalil John
- Re: [6gip] 6G in 3GPP? Sri Gundavelli (sgundave)
- Re: [6gip] 6G Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: [6gip] 6G in 3GPP? Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: [6gip] 6G Lars Eggert
- Re: [6gip] 6G in 3GPP? Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: [6gip] 6G in 3GPP? David Lake
- Re: [6gip] 6G Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: [6gip] 6G Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: [6gip] 6G Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: [6gip] 6G in 3GPP? John Grant
- Re: [6gip] 6G Lars Eggert
- Re: [6gip] 6G Lars Eggert
- Re: [6gip] 6G John Grant
- Re: [6gip] 6G Stewart Bryant
- Re: [6gip] 6G David Lake
- Re: [6gip] 6G in 3GPP? David Lake
- Re: [6gip] 6G Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: [6gip] 6G Lars Eggert
- Re: [6gip] 6G Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: [6gip] 6G Lars Eggert
- Re: [6gip] 6G Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: [6gip] 6G in 3GPP? Behcet Sarikaya
- Re: [6gip] 6G Behcet Sarikaya
- Re: [6gip] 6G in 3GPP? John Grant
- Re: [6gip] 6G in 3GPP? Flinck, Hannu (Nokia - FI/Espoo)
- Re: [6gip] 6G in 3GPP? - timeline Flinck, Hannu (Nokia - FI/Espoo)
- Re: [6gip] 6G in 3GPP? Flinck, Hannu (Nokia - FI/Espoo)
- Re: [6gip] 6G in 3GPP? Flinck, Hannu (Nokia - FI/Espoo)
- Re: [6gip] 6G in 3GPP? Toerless Eckert
- Re: [6gip] 6G in 3GPP? Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: [6gip] 6G in 3GPP? Rex Buddenberg
- Re: [6gip] 6G Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: [6gip] 6G in 3GPP? Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: [6gip] 6G in 3GPP? David Lake
- Re: [6gip] 6G in 3GPP? David Lake
- Re: [6gip] 6G in 3GPP? Stewart Bryant
- Re: [6gip] 6G in 3GPP? John Grant
- Re: [6gip] 6G in 3GPP? David Lake
- Re: [6gip] 6G in 3GPP? David Lake
- Re: [6gip] 6G in 3GPP? Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: [6gip] 6G in 3GPP? Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: [6gip] 6G in 3GPP? David Lake
- Re: [6gip] 6G in 3GPP? Behcet Sarikaya
- Re: [6gip] 6G in 3GPP? John Grant