Re: [6lowapp] Next version of charter proposal up on 6lowapp.net

[Benoit Claise <[e-mail]>]

 From the requirement/use case remark in my initial email, I wanted to 
understand: how many constrained nodes in a single constrained network 
must share the 250kbit/s? For example, in case of discovery, concurrent 
events, concurrent queries, etc.
IMHO, this is an important input for the protocol design, which I didn't 
get from the BOF.

Regards, Benoit.
> Although I agree with the not challenged statement, a few updates:
> I expect a presence detector to send out a message once per second or per 10 seconds
> There may be 1 till 100 in one wireless mesh, dependent on office lay-out.
> The crux comes when an alarm hits. Then we will have an avalanche of messages and some can be just thrown away and a few need to be sent on through the routers to some central post(s)regardless. There is the challenge of overload handling.
>
> Peter
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [e-mail] [mailto:[e-mail]] On Behalf Of Stuber, Michael
> Sent: Monday 9 November 2009 4:49
> To: Henning Schulzrinne
> Cc: [e-mail]
> Subject: Re: [6lowapp] Next version of charter proposal up on 6lowapp.net
>
> The amount of bandwidth required per applications varies a great deal.
> Some devices, like light switches, or battery powered sensors may only
> send a message or two per day.  Other devices such as energy usage
> monitors or electric vehicles may send a large number of updates.
> Electric meters may send current usage information to in-home displays
> every 10 seconds.  Electric cars may start with an extended exchange to
> negotiate a charging regime, followed by periodic updates to in-home
> displays regarding the device's state of charge.
>
> Most of the networks that I worry about are indeed likely to be small
> (>30 nodes); however, there are places where folks have been running
> larger smart energy networks for meter data collection that are upwards
> of thousands of nodes.  The 802.15.4 T4G SUN work is likely to expand
> this trend.  Starting with efficient protocols provides headroom for
> growth in the application later.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Henning Schulzrinne [mailto:[e-mail]]
> Sent: Sunday, November 08, 2009 7:25 PM
> To: Stuber, Michael
> Cc: Benoit Claise; [e-mail]
> Subject: Re: [6lowapp] Next version of charter proposal up on
> 6lowapp.net
>
> Right, but the bandwidth per device is really, really low. How many bits
> do you send each day to a thermostat or light switch? Are there any
> measurements of the realistic signaling load in such networks?
>
> I'm worried about artificially constraining the solution space to solve
> a practical non-problem.
>
> Henning
>
> On Nov 8, 2009, at 10:18 PM, Stuber, Michael wrote:
>
>   
>> Keep in mind though, that much of that bandwidth is shared on these
>> networks  In an 802.15.4 environment, devices will share a single
>> channel.  If this work is successful there will be many constrained
>> nodes within the network, rather than a single pair of nodes.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: [e-mail] [mailto:[e-mail]] On
>> Behalf Of Henning Schulzrinne
>> Sent: Sunday, November 08, 2009 6:33 PM
>> To: Benoit Claise
>> Cc: [e-mail]
>> Subject: Re: [6lowapp] Next version of charter proposal up on
>> 6lowapp.net
>>
>> I find this conflation of Smart Energy/HAN and LowApp confusing.
>> Most of
>> the in-home networks are not exactly "challenged". Even ZigBee has 250
>>     
>
>   
>> kb/s (or 20 kb/s in the lowest-bandwidth mode), i.e., equivalent to
>> early DSL or 1990's modems.
>>
>> Henning
>>
>> On Nov 8, 2009, at 9:20 PM, Benoit Claise wrote:
>>
>>     
>>> Carsten,
>>>
>>> Thanks for the new charter proposal.
>>>
>>> - "This WG is concentrating on requirements from energy (e.g. Smart
>>> Energy 2.0) and building management applications."
>>> Is the goal to describe these requirements in the "objectives and
>>> architecture" document?
>>> If not, where can we understand those requirements from?
>>> The following were mentioned on the list:
>>>
>>> There are a lot of use cases to start with.  Here is a starter set:
>>> 1)  OpenHAN:
>>>
>>> http://www.utilityami.org/docs/UtilityAMI%20HAN%20SRS%20-
>>> %20v1.04%20-%
>>> 200808
>>>
>>> 19-1.pdf
>>> 2)  SmartGridipedia:
>>>
>>> http://www.smartgridipedia.org/index.php/Category:Use_Cases
>>> , both the
>>> Intelligrid and Southern California Edison use cases are good
>>> 3)  ZigBee/HomePlug Market Requirements and Use Cases (which we are
>>> using for our Smart Energy V2 work):
>>>
>>> http://www.homeplug.org/products/ZBHP_SE_MRD_090624.pdf
>>> Any other ones?
>>>
>>> "The framework will also specify specify a way to support interface
>>> profiles, ..."
>>> Can you expand on "interface profile".
>>>
>>>
>>> "A document with operation and management advice about running a
>>> network using these applications."
>>> Is advice the right word? It seems like one or two advices are
>>> sufficient to manage the network ;-)
>>>
>>>
>>> Regards, Benoit.
>>>       
>>>> I have put a new version of the WG charter proposal on the wiki page
>>>>         
>
>   
>>>> at http://6lowapp.net =
>>>> http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/app/trac/wiki/6LowApp
>>>> (charter text is at the end of the page).
>>>>
>>>> Obviously, I could not pick up every comment that was on the list
>>>> (they were partially going in conflicting directions), but please do
>>>>         
>
>   
>>>> comment on the new version.
>>>>
>>>> Gruesse, Carsten
>>>>
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>
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