Re: [6tisch] removing the 'e'

[Brian Haberman <[e-mail]>]

Pascal,

On 3/31/15 2:58 AM, Pascal Thubert (pthubert) wrote:
> Thanks a bunch Tom!
> 
> I think that the case must be brought to the attention of the ADs,
> CC’ing Brian. I’m unclear what the IETF best practice is for external
> documents such as IEEE, but the IEC approach seems very well though
> through. If we do not have such a detailed BCP, then this should be
> exposed to the IAB.

I am not aware of a BCP that discusses references to external documents.
 Format-wise, that is the purview of the RFC Editor.  I am not sure why
the IAB would care about references...

I am generally leery of a blanket reference to the generic
specification.  The WG has developed its solution based on a particular
version of the IEEE specification, so I would expect to see references
annotated by the year of the 15.4 spec.

Regards,
Brian

> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Pascal
> 
> From: 6tisch [mailto:[e-mail]] On Behalf Of Tom
> Phinney Sent: lundi 30 mars 2015 23:57 To: [e-mail] Subject:
> Re: [6tisch] removing the 'e'
> 
> Dear all:
> 
> I was contributing a comment on this subject via the chat channel
> when the Thursday meeting closed. Diego, who was managing the chat
> channel, captured it and we subsequently have had the attached
> exchange.
> 
> In ISO and IEC standards the practice is to list the generic document
> within the list of Normative References unless there are explicit
> references to specific subclauses of the referenced document, in
> which case a specific edition needs to be called out because
> subclause numbering often change from one edition to the next.
> 
> Thus, if a 6tisch document references subclause m.n.p within the new
> 2015 edition of IEEE802.15.4, the reference would be to
> IEEE802.15.4:2015, m.n.p. Otherwise the reference WITHIN the standard
> is simply to IEEE802.15.4, without qualification as to the specific
> edition. While such an unqualified reference presumes that material
> on the referenced topic will not disappear from future editions of
> IEEE802.15.4, such an assumption is almost always valid and leads to
> much less confusion by those trying to use the standard over its
> lifetime.
> 
> The specific wording to cover both dated and undated references that
> the latest version of the ISO/IEC editing directives itself uses is:
> 
> The following documents, in whole or in part, are normatively
> referenced in this document and are indispensable for its
> application. For dated references, only the edition cited applies.
> For undated references, the latest edition of the referenced document
> (including any amendments) applies.
> 
> The related text from the ISO/IEC editing directives with regard to
> use of Normative References is:
> 
> 6.2.2 Normative references
> 
> This conditional element shall give a list of the referenced
> documents cited (see 6.6.7.5) in the document in such a way as to
> make them indispensable for the application of the document. For
> dated references, each shall be given with its year of publication,
> or, in the case of enquiry or final drafts, with a dash together with
> a footnote “To be published.”, and full title. The year of
> publication or dash shall not be given for undated references. When
> an undated reference is to all parts of a document, the publication
> number shall be followed by the indication “(all parts)” and the
> general title of the series of parts (i.e. the introductory and main
> elements, see Annex E).
> 
> In principle, the referenced documents shall be documents published
> by ISO and/or IEC. Documents published by other bodies may be
> referred to in a normative manner provided that a) the referenced
> document is recognized by the ISO and/or IEC committee concerned as 
> having wide acceptance and authoritative status as well as being
> publicly available, b) the ISO and/or IEC committee concerned has
> obtained the agreement of the authors or publishers (where known) of
> the referenced document to its inclusion and to its being made
> available as required — the authors or publishers will be expected to
> make available such documents on request, c) the authors or
> publishers (where known) have also agreed to inform the ISO and/or
> IEC committee concerned of their intention to revise the referenced
> document and of the points the revision will concern, and d) the ISO
> and/or IEC committee concerned undertakes to review the situation in
> the light of any changes in the referenced document.
> 
> The list shall be introduced by the following wording: “The following
> documents, in whole or in part, are normatively referenced in this 
> document and are indispensable for its application. For dated
> references, only the edition cited applies. For undated references,
> the latest edition of the referenced document (including any
> amendments) applies.”
> 
> The above wording is also applicable to a part of a multipart
> document.
> 
> The list shall not include the following: • referenced documents
> which are not publicly available; • referenced documents which are
> only cited in an informative manner; • referenced documents which
> have merely served as bibliographic or background material in the
> preparation of the document.
> 
> Such referenced documents may be listed in a bibliography (see
> 6.4.2).
> 
> An example from the same ISO/IEC Directives, Part 2 document
> demonstrates proper dated-citation usage, including usage of the date
> only as necessary to reduce ambiguity:
> 
> D.1.1 Scope of rules and examples provided in Annex D
> 
> Annex D provides a synthesis of the rules and examples given in ISO
> 10241-1:2011, and is intended to cover those rules applicable to the
> forms of terms and definitions most commonly present in ISO and IEC
> standards. For the complete set of rules and examples, refer to ISO
> 10241-1.
> 
> 
> 
> It seems likely that actual references to the 2015 edition of
> IEEE802.15.4 will, in fact, need to cite specific subclauses. If that
> is the case, then this entire discussion of whether or not to cite
> the edition is moot, because such citations are essential to ensure
> that any specific sublclause references actually point to relevant
> text.
> 
> -Tom
> 
> 
> 
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