Re: [6tisch] removing the 'e'

[Brian Haberman <[e-mail]>]

Hi Pascal,

On 3/31/15 8:57 AM, Pascal Thubert (pthubert) wrote:
> Hello Brian:
> 
> Adding the year is apparently not the expectation of the group that
> owns the reference that we make. I mentioned the IAB because of a
> best practice question; I'm asking if there needs to be a best
> practice at the IETF like there is at IEC as well-documented in Tom
> Phinney's email, and if so, then who should write it? I take from
> your email that you do not think there is such a need.

I do not think there is a need for yet another set of rules.  We should
be exercising good judgement and doing what is right for each situation.

I am still confused by your mention of the IAB.  The IAB has nothing to
do with BCPs related to IETF stream documents.

> 
> Regardless, there appears to be a tension that 6TiSCH needs to
> resolve, I really like the way IEC did it, and I would not mind doing
> the exact same: If you have a dependency on a text that is particular
> to one version, be specific, else be generic.

Then that is an issue for 6tisch to resolve collectively.

> 
> So far, 6TiSCH does not have a dependency on a particular version, so
> we could keep it generic with 802.15.4, with a mention that a part of
> the overall interoperability depends on the MAC and PHY layers and is
> independent on 6TiSCH.

If we were to assume that:

1. IEEE publishes 802.15.4-2015
2. the 6tisch protocol spec is published *after* 802.15.4-2015
3. the published 6tisch protocol references generically 802.15.4

what happens to the IETF spec if the IEEE publishes 802.15.4-2017, that
spec overhauls the 15.4e behavior, and renders the 6tisch spec useless?

To me, the above would argue that referencing 802.15.4-2015 makes it
clear which version of that spec is needed to support the 6tisch spec.

The above may not be an issue given I am still coming up to speed on all
aspects of 6tisch.

Regards,
Brian

> 
> My reading is that we'd leave it up to manufacturers to select the
> MAC/PHY version that they like, and they have their own reasons to
> pick one; the caveat is that they might not interop with one another
> at the IEEE layers, but should that be our problem?
> 
> At least I understand that we need to be specific for the plug test.
> And that we can resolve within the WG.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Pascal
> 
> 
>> -----Original Message----- From: 6tisch
>> [mailto:[e-mail]] On Behalf Of Brian Haberman Sent:
>> mardi 31 mars 2015 14:22 To: [e-mail] Subject: Re: [6tisch]
>> removing the 'e'
>> 
>> Pascal,
>> 
>> On 3/31/15 2:58 AM, Pascal Thubert (pthubert) wrote:
>>> Thanks a bunch Tom!
>>> 
>>> I think that the case must be brought to the attention of the
>>> ADs, CC'ing Brian. I'm unclear what the IETF best practice is for
>>> external documents such as IEEE, but the IEC approach seems very
>>> well though through. If we do not have such a detailed BCP, then
>>> this should be exposed to the IAB.
>> 
>> I am not aware of a BCP that discusses references to external
>> documents. Format-wise, that is the purview of the RFC Editor.  I
>> am not sure why the IAB would care about references...
>> 
>> I am generally leery of a blanket reference to the generic
>> specification.  The WG has developed its solution based on a
>> particular version of the IEEE specification, so I would expect to
>> see references annotated by the year of the 15.4 spec.
>> 
>> Regards, Brian
>> 
>>> 
>>> Cheers,
>>> 
>>> Pascal
>>> 
>>> From: 6tisch [mailto:[e-mail]] On Behalf Of Tom
>>> Phinney Sent: lundi 30 mars 2015 23:57 To: [e-mail]
>>> Subject: Re: [6tisch] removing the 'e'
>>> 
>>> Dear all:
>>> 
>>> I was contributing a comment on this subject via the chat channel
>>> when the Thursday meeting closed. Diego, who was managing the
>>> chat channel, captured it and we subsequently have had the
>>> attached exchange.
>>> 
>>> In ISO and IEC standards the practice is to list the generic
>>> document within the list of Normative References unless there are
>>> explicit references to specific subclauses of the referenced
>>> document, in which case a specific edition needs to be called out
>>> because subclause numbering often change from one edition to the
>>> next.
>>> 
>>> Thus, if a 6tisch document references subclause m.n.p within the
>>> new 2015 edition of IEEE802.15.4, the reference would be to 
>>> IEEE802.15.4:2015, m.n.p. Otherwise the reference WITHIN the
>>> standard is simply to IEEE802.15.4, without qualification as to
>>> the specific edition. While such an unqualified reference
>>> presumes that material on the referenced topic will not disappear
>>> from future editions of IEEE802.15.4, such an assumption is
>>> almost always valid and leads to much less confusion by those
>>> trying to use the standard over its lifetime.
>>> 
>>> The specific wording to cover both dated and undated references
>>> that the latest version of the ISO/IEC editing directives itself
>>> uses is:
>>> 
>>> The following documents, in whole or in part, are normatively 
>>> referenced in this document and are indispensable for its
>>> application. For dated references, only the edition cited
>>> applies. For undated references, the latest edition of the
>>> referenced document (including any amendments) applies.
>>> 
>>> The related text from the ISO/IEC editing directives with regard
>>> to use of Normative References is:
>>> 
>>> 6.2.2 Normative references
>>> 
>>> This conditional element shall give a list of the referenced
>>> documents cited (see 6.6.7.5) in the document in such a way as to
>>> make them indispensable for the application of the document. For
>>> dated references, each shall be given with its year of
>>> publication, or, in the case of enquiry or final drafts, with a
>>> dash together with a footnote "To be published.", and full title.
>>> The year of publication or dash shall not be given for undated
>>> references. When an undated reference is to all parts of a
>>> document, the publication number shall be followed by the
>>> indication "(all parts)" and the general title of the series of
>>> parts (i.e. the introductory and main elements, see Annex E).
>>> 
>>> In principle, the referenced documents shall be documents
>>> published by ISO and/or IEC. Documents published by other bodies
>>> may be referred to in a normative manner provided that a) the
>>> referenced document is recognized by the ISO and/or IEC committee
>>> concerned as having wide acceptance and authoritative status as
>>> well as being publicly available, b) the ISO and/or IEC committee
>>> concerned has obtained the agreement of the authors or publishers
>>> (where known) of the referenced document to its inclusion and to
>>> its being made available as required - the authors or publishers
>>> will be expected to make available such documents on request, c)
>>> the authors or publishers (where known) have also agreed to
>>> inform the ISO and/or IEC committee concerned of their intention
>>> to revise the referenced document and of the points the revision
>>> will concern, and d) the ISO and/or IEC committee concerned 
>>> undertakes to review the situation in the light of any changes in
>>> the referenced document.
>>> 
>>> The list shall be introduced by the following wording: "The
>>> following documents, in whole or in part, are normatively
>>> referenced in this document and are indispensable for its
>>> application. For dated references, only the edition cited
>>> applies. For undated references, the latest edition of the
>>> referenced document (including any amendments) applies."
>>> 
>>> The above wording is also applicable to a part of a multipart 
>>> document.
>>> 
>>> The list shall not include the following: * referenced documents
>>> which are not publicly available; * referenced documents which
>>> are only cited in an informative manner; * referenced documents
>>> which have merely served as bibliographic or background material
>>> in the preparation of the document.
>>> 
>>> Such referenced documents may be listed in a bibliography (see
>>> 6.4.2).
>>> 
>>> An example from the same ISO/IEC Directives, Part 2 document 
>>> demonstrates proper dated-citation usage, including usage of the
>>> date only as necessary to reduce ambiguity:
>>> 
>>> D.1.1 Scope of rules and examples provided in Annex D
>>> 
>>> Annex D provides a synthesis of the rules and examples given in
>>> ISO 10241-1:2011, and is intended to cover those rules applicable
>>> to the forms of terms and definitions most commonly present in
>>> ISO and IEC standards. For the complete set of rules and
>>> examples, refer to ISO 10241-1.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> It seems likely that actual references to the 2015 edition of 
>>> IEEE802.15.4 will, in fact, need to cite specific subclauses. If
>>> that is the case, then this entire discussion of whether or not
>>> to cite the edition is moot, because such citations are essential
>>> to ensure that any specific sublclause references actually point
>>> to relevant text.
>>> 
>>> -Tom
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
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