Re: [6tisch] removing the 'e'

[Tom Phinney <[e-mail]>]

Dear all:

I was contributing a comment on this subject via the chat channel when the Thursday meeting closed. Diego, who was managing the chat channel, captured it and we subsequently have had the attached exchange.

In ISO and IEC standards the practice is to list the generic document within the list of Normative References unless there are explicit references to specific subclauses of the referenced document, in which case a specific edition needs to be called out because subclause numbering often change from one edition to the next.

Thus, if a 6tisch document references subclause m.n.p within the new 2015 edition of IEEE802.15.4, the reference would be to IEEE802.15.4:2015, m.n.p. Otherwise the reference WITHIN the standard is simply to IEEE802.15.4, without qualification as to the specific edition. While such an unqualified reference presumes that material on the referenced topic will not disappear from future editions of IEEE802.15.4, such an assumption is almost always valid and leads to much less confusion by those trying to use the standard over its lifetime.

The specific wording to cover both dated and undated references that the latest version of the ISO/IEC editing directives itself uses is:

The following documents, in whole or in part, are normatively referenced in this document and
are indispensable for its application. For dated references, only the edition cited applies. For
undated references, the latest edition of the referenced document (including any
amendments) applies.

The related text from the ISO/IEC editing directives with regard to use of Normative References is:

6.2.2 Normative references

This conditional element shall give a list of the referenced documents cited (see 6.6.7.5) in
the document in such a way as to make them indispensable for the application of the
document. For dated references, each shall be given with its year of publication, or, in the
case of enquiry or final drafts, with a dash together with a footnote “To be published.”, and full
title. The year of publication or dash shall not be given for undated references. When an
undated reference is to all parts of a document, the publication number shall be followed by
the indication “(all parts)” and the general title of the series of parts (i.e. the introductory and
main elements, see Annex E).

In principle, the referenced documents shall be documents published by ISO and/or IEC.
Documents published by other bodies may be referred to in a normative manner provided that
a) the referenced document is recognized by the ISO and/or IEC committee concerned as
having wide acceptance and authoritative status as well as being publicly available,
b) the ISO and/or IEC committee concerned has obtained the agreement of the authors or
publishers (where known) of the referenced document to its inclusion and to its being
made available as required — the authors or publishers will be expected to make
available such documents on request,
c) the authors or publishers (where known) have also agreed to inform the ISO and/or IEC
committee concerned of their intention to revise the referenced document and of the
points the revision will concern, and
d) the ISO and/or IEC committee concerned undertakes to review the situation in the light of
any changes in the referenced document.

The list shall be introduced by the following wording:
“The following documents, in whole or in part, are normatively referenced in this
document and are indispensable for its application. For dated references, only the edition
cited applies. For undated references, the latest edition of the referenced document
(including any amendments) applies.”

The above wording is also applicable to a part of a multipart document.

The list shall not include the following:
• referenced documents which are not publicly available;
• referenced documents which are only cited in an informative manner;
• referenced documents which have merely served as bibliographic or background material
in the preparation of the document.

Such referenced documents may be listed in a bibliography (see 6.4.2).

An example from the same ISO/IEC Directives, Part 2 document demonstrates proper dated-citation usage, including usage of the date only as necessary to reduce ambiguity:

D.1.1 Scope of rules and examples provided in Annex D

Annex D provides a synthesis of the rules and examples given in ISO 10241-1:2011, and is
intended to cover those rules applicable to the forms of terms and definitions most commonly
present in ISO and IEC standards. For the complete set of rules and examples, refer to
ISO 10241-1.

It seems likely that actual references to the 2015 edition of IEEE802.15.4 will, in fact, need to cite specific subclauses. If that is the case, then this entire discussion of whether or not to cite the edition is moot, because such citations are essential to ensure that any specific sublclause references actually point to relevant text.

-Tom

--- Begin Message ---

Tom,
       I think what you say is completely relevant to
discuss on 6tisch so as to keep the references correct
and coherent among the documents.
      I encourage you to send these comments to the
ML, or, if you wish, I can do it for you (referencing you
as the author, of course).
     I hope to see you on the next 6tisch webex call, which
should be announced soon.
     Tell me what you think about this.
     Thank you.
     Regards,

                            Diego Dujovne


2015-03-26 13:59 GMT-03:00 Tom Phinney <[e-mail]>et>:

>  I saw that the meeting was concluding just as I finished typing. My
> comment was about the general nature of references. I agree with Pat Kinney
> that references need to be to the current edition, which requires updates
> to specs that cite subclause numbers. That's why it's best not to cite such
> numbers. The standard text at the start of Clause 2, the Normative
> Reference clause, in IEC and ISO standards is
>
> The following referenced documents are indispensable for the application
> of this document. For dated references, only the edition cited applies. For
> undated references, the latest edition of the referenced document
> (including any amendments) applies.
>
> Thus most references can be to the current edition, whatever that is,
> meaning that the normative reference lists the document but not the edition
> or publication date. However, when it is necessary to cite within the
> specification specific subclause numbers of another document, which can
> change from one edition to another of that second document, then the
> edition listed in the normative references section must be dated.
>
>
> As to whether I can participate in the next 6tisch interim meeting, that,
> as always, depends on the date and time of the meeting. I participated on
> Monday and early this morning because it fit my schedule. However, I should
> have left for a class after the first hour. Instead I stayed on the
> connection until there was an unintended loss of connection, then
> reconnected to hear the end of the session.
> ===
>
> On 2015.03.26 09:41, Prof. Diego Dujovne wrote:
>
>    Tom,
>         Your last comment could not be included.
>  Would you be able to participate on the next 6tisch
>  interim meeting and reproduce that comment please?
>
> "Tom Phinney: An unqualified reference to a standard implies the edition
> listed in the normative references, which needs to specify either issue
> date (year) or edition. Any subclause references should be to that edition."
>
>  Thank you!
>  Regards,
>
>                         Diego Dujovne
>
> --
> DIEGO DUJOVNE
> Académico Escuela de Ingeniería en Informática y Telecomunicaciones
> Facultad de Ingeniería UDP
> www.ingenieria.udp.cl
> (56 2) 676 8125
>
>
>


-- 
DIEGO DUJOVNE
Académico Escuela de Ingeniería en Informática y Telecomunicaciones
Facultad de Ingeniería UDP
www.ingenieria.udp.cl
(56 2) 676 8125

--- End Message ---