Re: [6tisch] Time to Live - ASN in a packet

Thomas Watteyne <thomas.watteyne@inria.fr> Thu, 08 September 2016 10:24 UTC

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From: Thomas Watteyne <thomas.watteyne@inria.fr>
Date: Thu, 08 Sep 2016 12:24:04 +0200
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To: "Shwetha Bhandari (shwethab)" <shwethab@cisco.com>
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Cc: Lijo Thomas <lijo@cdac.in>, "6tisch@ietf.org" <6tisch@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [6tisch] Time to Live - ASN in a packet
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I understand now, thanks.

On Thursday, September 8, 2016, Shwetha Bhandari (shwethab) <
shwethab@cisco.com> wrote:

> Hi Thomas,
>
> Yes, if it is v6 then hbh option -
>  https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-brockners-inband-oam-
> transport-01#section-3.1
>
> For Lijo’s use-case the below proposal was to define a new type in hbh
> option defined here - https://tools.ietf.org/html/
> draft-brockners-inband-oam-data-01#section-3.3
>
> Thanks,
> Shwetha
> From: Thomas Watteyne <thomas.watteyne@inria.fr
> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','thomas.watteyne@inria.fr');>>
> Date: Thursday, September 8, 2016 at 3:47 PM
> To: Lijo Thomas <lijo@cdac.in
> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','lijo@cdac.in');>>
> Cc: "6tisch@ietf.org <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','6tisch@ietf.org');>" <
> 6tisch@ietf.org <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','6tisch@ietf.org');>>,
> Shwetha bhandari <shwethab@cisco.com
> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','shwethab@cisco.com');>>
> Subject: Re: [6tisch] Time to Live - ASN in a packet
>
> Shwetha,
> I fail to understand how this option would be carried. I assume a
> hop-by-hop IPv6 extension header?
> Thomas
>
> On Wednesday, August 31, 2016, Lijo Thomas <lijo@cdac.in
> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','lijo@cdac.in');>> wrote:
>
>> Hi all,
>>
>>
>>
>> This is for your information.
>>
>>
>>
>> Following are the mail interactions with Shwetha regarding the subject
>>
>>
>>
>> Further inputs on the topic are most welcome..
>>
>>
>> Thanks & Regards
>>
>> Lijo Thomas
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -------- Forwarded Message --------
>>
>> *Subject: *
>>
>> Re: [6tisch] Time to Live - ASN in a packet
>>
>> *Date: *
>>
>> Fri, 26 Aug 2016 18:29:34 +0530 (IST)
>>
>> *From: *
>>
>> Lijo Thomas <lijo@cdac.in>
>>
>> *Reply-To: *
>>
>> Lijo Thomas <lijo@cdac.in>
>>
>> *To: *
>>
>> Shwetha Bhandari (shwethab) <shwethab@cisco.com>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Hi Shwetha,
>>
>>
>>
>> Your proposal sounds good !
>>
>>
>>
>> Since the intermediate nodes does not have to modify the packet, your
>> suggestion suits the constrained environments as well.
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks & Regards
>>
>> Lijo Thomas
>>
>>
>> On August 26, 2016 at 2:14 PM "Shwetha Bhandari (shwethab)"
>> <shwethab@cisco.com> wrote:
>>
>> Hi Lijo,
>>
>>
>>
>> Very interesting use case, thanks for sharing the details.
>>
>>
>>
>> So at a minimum you will need to:
>>
>>    - timestamp when the packet starts its journey in the deterministic
>>    domain
>>    - A threshold delay that is acceptable
>>
>> The above can be expressed as a future timestamp that specifies the
>> cutoff time to deliver the packet to its destination.
>>
>>
>>
>> Given this, the intermediate hops need not update the value, but only
>> read it to check the time remaining as the clocks are synchronized.
>>
>> Is that a fair assumption?
>>
>>
>>
>> If yes perhaps we can define a new type of Edge to Edge option that we
>> have defined here -  https://tools.ietf.org/html/dr
>> aft-brockners-inband-oam-data-01#section-3.3
>>
>> That will include the [timestamp + max delay] at the originator and be
>> examined at every hop and used for scheduling.
>>
>> Something like:
>>
>>        0                   1                   2                   3
>>
>>        0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1
>>
>>       +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>>
>>       |  Option Type  |  Opt Data Len | OAM-E2E-Type  |    reserved   |
>>
>>       +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>>
>>       |      E2E Option data format determined by iOAM-E2E-Type       |
>>
>>       +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>>
>>
>>
>>  iOAM-E2E-Type:  8-bit identifier of a particular in-band OAM E2E
>>
>>       variant.
>>
>>          0: E2E option data is a 64-bit sequence number added to a
>>
>>          specific tube which is used to identify packet loss and
>>
>>          reordering for that tube.
>>
>>          1: E2E option data is a 64-bit timestamp …..
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Thoughts?
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Shwetha
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From: *Lijo Thomas < lijo@cdac.in>
>> *Reply-To: *Lijo Thomas < lijo@cdac.in>
>> *Date: *Friday, August 26, 2016 at 11:59 AM
>> *To: *Shwetha bhandari < shwethab@cisco.com>
>> *Cc: *"Frank Brockners (fbrockne)" < fbrockne@cisco.com>, "
>> malati@ece.iisc.ernet.in" < malati@ece.iisc.ernet.in>, "
>> anand@ece.iisc.ernet.in" < anand@ece.iisc.ernet.in>
>> *Subject: *Re: [6tisch] Time to Live - ASN in a packet
>>
>>
>>
>> Hi Shwetha,
>>
>> Thanks for the very useful inputs!
>>
>> I thought I will briefly describe the context.
>>
>> We are implementing a distributed scheduling scheme on a 6tisch network
>> to
>> support flows with strict delay contstaints. In some sense, we are
>> working on
>> deterministic networking. As you might be aware, there are several
>> distributed
>> algorithms in the literature such as EDF, LLF and so forth where
>> intermediate
>> nodes schedules packets based on the per-flow delay requirements,
>> remaining
>> time left to reach the destination, delay already experienced. These
>> distributed debt based schemes attempt to meet the deadlines of the
>> flows,
>> thereby enabling us to realise deterministic networks.
>>
>> Therefore, the scheduler running on the nodes need to know the remaining
>> time
>> left before which the packet should reach the receiver. Since the 6tisch
>> network is time synchronized, we are thinking of using ASN as a means to
>> update the remaining time left. The originator specifies the maximum time
>> limit.
>>
>> I went through your draft. Thanks for the same! From my understanding, it
>> appears that we may have to use OAM-trace-type : 0x00001001 for our
>> requirement.
>>
>> I am not sure if the above type can be used in our problem setting.
>>
>> Hence I would like to know if there is any specfic format explicitly
>> defined
>> considering the case of LLNs for including the Time field in hop by hop
>> header,
>> something similar to inclusion of RPL packet information in HbH.
>>
>> I would like to discuss more on this topic if you feel it is interesting.
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks & Regards
>>
>> Lijo Thomas
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On August 26, 2016 at 5:44 AM "Shwetha Bhandari (shwethab)" <
>> shwethab@cisco.com> wrote:
>>
>> Hi Lijo,
>>
>>
>>
>> We have the implementation in VPP <http://wiki.fd.io/view/VPP>, you can
>> refer to the code  here
>> <https://gerrit.fd.io/r/gitweb?p=vpp.git;a=blob;f=vnet/vnet/ip/ip6_hop_by_hop.c;h=7038556848c3d325b6612678a903f26cbf671de5;hb=HEAD>.
>>
>>
>> If you want to try it out in your experiment do let us know we can help
>> with more documentation to bring it up.
>>
>>
>>
>> We have some of our demos available here
>> <https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC0WJOAKBTrftyosP590RrXw>.
>>
>> Do keep us posted on the hardware study and any modification that you try
>> for constrained environment.
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Shwetha
>>
>>
>>
>> *From: *Lijo Thomas < lijo@cdac.in>
>> *Reply-To: *Lijo Thomas < lijo@cdac.in>
>> *Date: *Thursday, August 25, 2016 at 5:48 PM
>> *To: *Shwetha bhandari < shwethab@cisco.com>
>> *Cc: *"Frank Brockners (fbrockne)" < fbrockne@cisco.com>
>> *Subject: *Re: [6tisch] Time to Live - ASN in a packet
>>
>>
>>
>> Hi Shwetha,
>>
>>
>>
>> Excellent..
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks for the inputs,  we are looking for a solution exactly suggested
>> by you.
>>
>>
>>
>> we are implementing our algorithm on hardware and will get back to you .
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks & Regards
>>
>> Lijo Thomas
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On August 25, 2016 at 3:54 PM "Shwetha Bhandari (shwethab)" <
>> shwethab@cisco.com> wrote:
>>
>> Hi Lijo,
>>
>>
>>
>> We are trying something similar with In-band OAM – defining HbH options
>> to collect timestamps, node, interface information as the packet traverses
>> the nodes. Please take a look at the following:
>>
>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-brockners-inband-oam-data-
>> 01#section-3.1
>> <https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-brockners-inband-oam-data-01>
>>
>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-brockners-inband-oam-trans
>> port-01#section-3.1
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Shwetha
>>
>>
>>
>> *From: *6tisch < 6tisch-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Lijo Thomas <
>> lijo@cdac.in>
>> *Reply-To: *Lijo Thomas < lijo@cdac.in>
>> *Date: *Thursday, August 25, 2016 at 3:37 PM
>> *To: *Thomas Watteyne < thomas.watteyne@inria.fr>, "Pascal Thubert
>> (pthubert)" < pthubert@cisco.com>
>> *Cc: *" 6tisch@ietf.org" < 6tisch@ietf.org>
>> *Subject: *Re: [6tisch] Time to Live - ASN in a packet
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Hi Pascal & Thomas,
>>
>> The problem is inline with Pascal's comment on "looking for per packet
>> information to as to monitor and maybe influence the forwarding and
>> delivery"
>>
>> We are proposing a debt based distributed scheduling scheme where nodes
>> make forwarding decisions based on the PDR and end-to-end delay requirement
>> of flows.
>>
>> We simulated our algorithm using 6tisch simulator and got encouraging
>> results. For this, we plugged in ASN value in the application payload and
>> the intermediate node updates the ASN value before forwarding.
>>
>> Now we are implementing the algorithm on the hardware using OpenWSN
>> environment and intend to do inline with the standard.
>>
>> We are actually contemplating on HbH at L3, similar to RPL RPI as
>> described in RFC 6553
>>
>> But we would like to understand that if any options is available in the
>> 6tisch framework.
>>
>> Expecting your valuable comments..!!!!!!!!!!
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks & Regards
>>
>> Lijo Thomas
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On August 25, 2016 at 1:39 PM "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" <
>> pthubert@cisco.com> wrote:
>>
>> Hello Lijo:
>>
>>
>>
>> Like Thomas, I’d love to understand what your case and solution approach
>> is. Is asynchronous OAM like the openWSN application enough for you? Or
>> else are you looking for per packet information to as to monitor and maybe
>> influence the forwarding and delivery?
>>
>>
>>
>> In the latter case, your work may be related to other efforts, and if
>> your experimentation is successful then why not consider a more general
>> applicability?
>>
>>
>>
>> All in all I have this feeling that time-aware forwarding is on the way,
>> in which exact shape and form is left TBD:
>>
>> -        DetNet is discussing validating the end-to-end latency of
>> individual packets to make sure that the delivery was within bounds. Is
>> that similar to your need?
>>
>> -        I’ve participated to work where the QoS of the packet was
>> estimated at each hop depending on whether the packet was early or late vs.
>> a predefined schedule. This makes things much simpler but slightly less
>> deterministic than a tight scheduling.
>>
>> -        There’s also OAM work that uses HbH headers to monitor the
>> packets as they flow along the network (IOW, in band as opposed to
>> asynchronous OAM packets)
>>
>>
>>
>> My understanding is that you want HbH behavior.
>>
>> -        If you are doing a mesh, you can probable hack a mesh header.
>>
>> -        But if you are considering a larger applicability (I hope so!)
>> then you probably want to hack at L3.
>>
>>
>>
>> You can find tons of ideas of what can be done at L3 in various
>> environments in https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-dt-detnet-dp-alt-03,
>> which is pending adoption call.
>>
>>
>>
>> But if you narrow down to 6TiSCH, then you probably want to design you
>> own option in the HbH header and incode it in a 6LoRH similar to the RPL
>> RPI. You may use ASN to start with, but when going standard you’ll have to
>> abstract that a little bit, even if the data in the packet is unchanged.
>>
>>
>>
>> Very keen to hear more!
>>
>>
>>
>> Pascal
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* 6tisch [mailto:6tisch-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Thomas
>> Watteyne
>> *Sent:* jeudi 25 août 2016 08:28
>> *To:* Lijo Thomas <lijo@cdac.in>
>> *Cc:* 6tisch@ietf.org
>> *Subject:* Re: [6tisch] Time to Live - ASN in a packet
>>
>>
>>
>> Lijo,
>>
>>
>>
>> It looks like you are describing two things: the TTL (or hop limit in
>> IPv6 parlance) which decrements by one by each router, and some timestamp
>> which can be used to measure end -to-end latency. I'm assuming the latter.
>>
>>
>>
>> I'm also assuming you are doing this as part of an experiment, to look at
>> the end-to-end/hop-by-hop latency. In that context, you probably aren't
>> looking for standardizing that (or even standards-compliance during your
>> experiment), but more at an implementation technique to keep that
>> information.
>>
>>
>>
>> Of course, the answer depends entirely on the information we are missing.
>> But assuming you are playing with the OpenWSN implementation, there is
>> already an application called rrt which sends the ASN as application
>> payload at the source, and records the ASN when the DAGroot has received
>> that. You can then substract one by the other and do some stats. Please ask
>> further questions to the OpenWSN community [1] as such technical discussion
>> on a particular implementation doesn't belong on the 6TiSCH WG ML.
>>
>>
>>
>> If you are using the commercial SmartMesh IP solution by Linear Tech [2],
>> good news, all of that is already built in. The manager (~DAGroot) keeps
>> track of timing and can send you average latencies for each of your nodes.
>> If you're interested, you can look at these numbers "live" on deployments
>> in Argentina [3,4] or California [5]. As you might imagine,
>> latency/throughput/lifetime trade-off for one another, so there is a handy
>> "performance estimator" tool you can use [6,7]. For further question on
>> this topic, please use www.dustcloud.org.
>>
>>
>>
>> Finally, looking at lowering latency in 6TiSCH has been an important
>> research topic in the last year or so. Look for example at the "Low-Latency
>> Scheduling Function" [8] work which lowers the per-hop latency to 10's of
>> ms withing the 6TiSCH framework.
>>
>>
>>
>> Thomas
>>
>>
>>
>> [1] www.openwsn.org
>>
>> [2] www.linear.com/dust
>>
>> [3] http://www.savethepeaches.com/
>>
>> [4] PEACH: Predicting Frost Events in Peach Orchards Using IoT
>> Technology. Thomas Watteyne, Ana Laura Diedrichs, Keoma Brun-Laguna, Javier
>> Emilio Chaar, Diego Dujovne, Juan Carlos Taffernaberry, Gustavo Mercado.
>> EAI Endorsed Transactions on the Internet of Things, to appear in 2016.
>>
>> [5] http://www.snowhow.io/
>>
>> [6] http://www.linear.com/docs/42452
>>
>> [7] Industrial IEEE802.15.4e Networks: Performance and Trade-offs. Thomas
>> Watteyne, Joy Weiss, Lance Doherty, Jonathan Simon. IEEE International
>> Conference on Communications (IEEE ICC), Internet of Things Symposium,
>> London, UK, 8-12 June 2015.
>>
>> [8] LLSF: Low Latency Scheduling Function for 6TiSCH Networks. Tengfei
>> Chang, Thomas Watteyne, Qin Wang, Xavier Vilajosana.... IEEE International
>> Conference on Distributed Computing in Sensor Systems (DCOSS), Washington,
>> DC, USA, 26-28 May 2016.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Aug 25, 2016 at 7:57 AM, Lijo Thomas <lijo@cdac.in> wrote:
>>
>> Hi all,
>>
>>
>>
>> We are working on problem which needs the *Time to Live (TTL)
>> information* in terms of *ASN * to be included as part of the Packet.
>>
>>
>>
>> We require the intermediate nodes to update TTL at each hop.
>>
>>
>>
>> How this information can be passed in a 6tisch framework.
>>
>>
>>
>> Suggestions are welcome..
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks & Regards
>>
>> Lijo Thomas
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------
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>> _______________________________________________
>> 6tisch mailing list
>> 6tisch@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/6tisch
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>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> _______________________________________
>>
>>
>>
>> Thomas Watteyne, PhD
>>
>> Research Scientist & Innovator, Inria
>>
>> Sr Networking Design Eng, Linear Tech
>>
>> Founder & co-lead, UC Berkeley OpenWSN
>>
>> Co-chair, IETF 6TiSCH
>>
>>
>>
>> www.thomaswatteyne.com
>>
>> _______________________________________
>>
>>
>>
>>
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>>
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>> -------------------------------------------------------------------
>> [ C-DAC is on Social-Media too. Kindly follow us at:
>> Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/CDACINDIA & Twitter: @cdacindia ]
>>
>> This e-mail is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may
>> contain confidential and privileged information. If you are not the
>> intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply e-mail and destroy
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>
>
> --
> _______________________________________
>
> Thomas Watteyne, PhD
> Research Scientist & Innovator, Inria
> Sr Networking Design Eng, Linear Tech
> Founder & co-lead, UC Berkeley OpenWSN
> Co-chair, IETF 6TiSCH
>
> www.thomaswatteyne.com
> _______________________________________
>
>

-- 
_______________________________________

Thomas Watteyne, PhD
Research Scientist & Innovator, Inria
Sr Networking Design Eng, Linear Tech
Founder & co-lead, UC Berkeley OpenWSN
Co-chair, IETF 6TiSCH

www.thomaswatteyne.com
_______________________________________