Re: [6tisch] removing the 'e'

["Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" <[e-mail]>]

Hello Brian:

Adding the year is apparently not the expectation of the group that owns the reference that we make. I mentioned the IAB because of a best practice question; I'm asking if there needs to be a best practice at the IETF like there is at IEC as well-documented in Tom Phinney's email, and if so, then who should write it? I take from your email that you do not think there is such a need.

Regardless, there appears to be a tension that 6TiSCH needs to resolve, I really like the way IEC did it, and I would not mind doing the exact same: If you have a dependency on a text that is particular to one version, be specific, else be generic.

So far, 6TiSCH does not have a dependency on a particular version, so we could keep it generic with 802.15.4, with a mention that a part of the overall interoperability depends on the MAC and PHY layers and is independent on 6TiSCH.

My reading is that we'd leave it up to manufacturers to select the MAC/PHY version that they like, and they have their own reasons to pick one; the caveat is that they might not interop with one another at the IEEE layers, but should that be our problem?

At least I understand that we need to be specific for the plug test. And that we can resolve within the WG.

Cheers,

Pascal


> -----Original Message-----
> From: 6tisch [mailto:[e-mail]] On Behalf Of Brian Haberman
> Sent: mardi 31 mars 2015 14:22
> To: [e-mail]
> Subject: Re: [6tisch] removing the 'e'
> 
> Pascal,
> 
> On 3/31/15 2:58 AM, Pascal Thubert (pthubert) wrote:
> > Thanks a bunch Tom!
> >
> > I think that the case must be brought to the attention of the ADs,
> > CC'ing Brian. I'm unclear what the IETF best practice is for external
> > documents such as IEEE, but the IEC approach seems very well though
> > through. If we do not have such a detailed BCP, then this should be
> > exposed to the IAB.
> 
> I am not aware of a BCP that discusses references to external documents.
>  Format-wise, that is the purview of the RFC Editor.  I am not sure why the IAB
> would care about references...
> 
> I am generally leery of a blanket reference to the generic specification.  The WG
> has developed its solution based on a particular version of the IEEE
> specification, so I would expect to see references annotated by the year of the
> 15.4 spec.
> 
> Regards,
> Brian
> 
> >
> > Cheers,
> >
> > Pascal
> >
> > From: 6tisch [mailto:[e-mail]] On Behalf Of Tom Phinney
> > Sent: lundi 30 mars 2015 23:57 To: [e-mail] Subject:
> > Re: [6tisch] removing the 'e'
> >
> > Dear all:
> >
> > I was contributing a comment on this subject via the chat channel when
> > the Thursday meeting closed. Diego, who was managing the chat channel,
> > captured it and we subsequently have had the attached exchange.
> >
> > In ISO and IEC standards the practice is to list the generic document
> > within the list of Normative References unless there are explicit
> > references to specific subclauses of the referenced document, in which
> > case a specific edition needs to be called out because subclause
> > numbering often change from one edition to the next.
> >
> > Thus, if a 6tisch document references subclause m.n.p within the new
> > 2015 edition of IEEE802.15.4, the reference would be to
> > IEEE802.15.4:2015, m.n.p. Otherwise the reference WITHIN the standard
> > is simply to IEEE802.15.4, without qualification as to the specific
> > edition. While such an unqualified reference presumes that material on
> > the referenced topic will not disappear from future editions of
> > IEEE802.15.4, such an assumption is almost always valid and leads to
> > much less confusion by those trying to use the standard over its
> > lifetime.
> >
> > The specific wording to cover both dated and undated references that
> > the latest version of the ISO/IEC editing directives itself uses is:
> >
> > The following documents, in whole or in part, are normatively
> > referenced in this document and are indispensable for its application.
> > For dated references, only the edition cited applies.
> > For undated references, the latest edition of the referenced document
> > (including any amendments) applies.
> >
> > The related text from the ISO/IEC editing directives with regard to
> > use of Normative References is:
> >
> > 6.2.2 Normative references
> >
> > This conditional element shall give a list of the referenced documents
> > cited (see 6.6.7.5) in the document in such a way as to make them
> > indispensable for the application of the document. For dated
> > references, each shall be given with its year of publication, or, in
> > the case of enquiry or final drafts, with a dash together with a
> > footnote "To be published.", and full title. The year of publication
> > or dash shall not be given for undated references. When an undated
> > reference is to all parts of a document, the publication number shall
> > be followed by the indication "(all parts)" and the general title of
> > the series of parts (i.e. the introductory and main elements, see
> > Annex E).
> >
> > In principle, the referenced documents shall be documents published by
> > ISO and/or IEC. Documents published by other bodies may be referred to
> > in a normative manner provided that a) the referenced document is
> > recognized by the ISO and/or IEC committee concerned as having wide
> > acceptance and authoritative status as well as being publicly
> > available, b) the ISO and/or IEC committee concerned has obtained the
> > agreement of the authors or publishers (where known) of the referenced
> > document to its inclusion and to its being made available as required
> > - the authors or publishers will be expected to make available such
> > documents on request, c) the authors or publishers (where known) have
> > also agreed to inform the ISO and/or IEC committee concerned of their
> > intention to revise the referenced document and of the points the
> > revision will concern, and d) the ISO and/or IEC committee concerned
> > undertakes to review the situation in the light of any changes in the
> > referenced document.
> >
> > The list shall be introduced by the following wording: "The following
> > documents, in whole or in part, are normatively referenced in this
> > document and are indispensable for its application. For dated
> > references, only the edition cited applies. For undated references,
> > the latest edition of the referenced document (including any
> > amendments) applies."
> >
> > The above wording is also applicable to a part of a multipart
> > document.
> >
> > The list shall not include the following: * referenced documents which
> > are not publicly available; * referenced documents which are only
> > cited in an informative manner; * referenced documents which have
> > merely served as bibliographic or background material in the
> > preparation of the document.
> >
> > Such referenced documents may be listed in a bibliography (see 6.4.2).
> >
> > An example from the same ISO/IEC Directives, Part 2 document
> > demonstrates proper dated-citation usage, including usage of the date
> > only as necessary to reduce ambiguity:
> >
> > D.1.1 Scope of rules and examples provided in Annex D
> >
> > Annex D provides a synthesis of the rules and examples given in ISO
> > 10241-1:2011, and is intended to cover those rules applicable to the
> > forms of terms and definitions most commonly present in ISO and IEC
> > standards. For the complete set of rules and examples, refer to ISO
> > 10241-1.
> >
> >
> >
> > It seems likely that actual references to the 2015 edition of
> > IEEE802.15.4 will, in fact, need to cite specific subclauses. If that
> > is the case, then this entire discussion of whether or not to cite the
> > edition is moot, because such citations are essential to ensure that
> > any specific sublclause references actually point to relevant text.
> >
> > -Tom
> >
> >
> >
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> >