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From: Tengfei Chang <tengfei.chang@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2019 18:31:27 +0200
Message-ID: <CAAdgstQwwBx64sOyvZX6pkzRcXKGWRD32O99T2Hv7ewv2TiZBQ@mail.gmail.com>
To: Abdussalam Baryun <abdussalambaryun@gmail.com>
Cc: Christian Hopfner <christian.hopfner@endress.com>, 
 "draft-ietf-6tisch-msf@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-6tisch-msf@ietf.org>,
 "6tisch@ietf.org" <6tisch@ietf.org>
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/6tisch/XPSzIQpVH0Dyg7Pz7MnAnv0kkgQ>
Subject: Re: [6tisch] Clarification on MSF-06
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Thanks Abdussalam for the comments, I updated the text as following:

   The node SHOULD send some form of keep-alive messages to all its
   neighbors it has negotiated cell with. The node sends a keep-

   alive message to the neighbor if no frames is received from that

   neighbor within a period, which is defined as KA_PERIOD. This mechanism

   is used to poll its children to ensure the child is still reachable.

   If the keep-alive message to a child fails at the link layer (i.e.

   the maximum number of link-layer retries is reached), the node

   SHOULD declare the child as unreachable. This can happen for example

   when the child node is switched off.


   When a neighbor is declared unreachable, the node MUST remove all
   negotiated cells with that neighbor from its own schedule.  In
   addition, it MAY issue a 6P CLEAR to that neighbor (which can fail at
   the link-layer). The node MAY be removed from the neighbor table.


Does this read good to you?

Tengfei



On Fri, Oct 11, 2019 at 5:06 PM Abdussalam Baryun <
abdussalambaryun@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi Tengfei,
>
> I am interested like Christian to see the poll mechanism into this draft.
> I don't think it is right to refer to RFC7554 (problem statement) which i=
s
> an informational RFC, while this draft is a proposed standard, I think it
> is better to state the mechanism into the use case of minimum scheduling.
> Furthermore, the RFC7554 does not mention once Keep-Alive message, but
> mentions signalling messages, which may confuse users.
>
> Best regards
> AB
>
> On Fri, Oct 11, 2019 at 3:41 PM Tengfei Chang <tengfei.chang@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Hi Christian,
>>
>> Thanks for pointing this issue out!
>> The neighbor polling section is removed at 03 version. Can't remember wh=
y
>> we removed it.
>>
>> I re-edited this sections to fit the current content of MSF draft. I
>> paste it below. It will the be last step of boot behavior after it start=
s
>> sending EB and DIO.
>>
>>    The node SHOULD send some form of keep-alive messages to all its
>>    neighbors it has negotiated cell with.  The Keep-Alive (KA)
>>    mechanism is detailed in [RFC7554 <https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc755=
4>].  It uses the keep-alive messages
>>    to its preferred parent to stay synchronized.  It MAY use the keep-
>>    alive messages to other neighbors to have statistics on link quality.
>>    It MAY use the keep-alive messages to its children to ensure the
>>    child is still reachable.  The RECOMMENDED period for sending keep-
>>    alive messages is KA_PERIOD.
>>
>>
>>    If the keep-alive message to a child fails at the link layer (i.e.
>>    the maximum number of link-layer retries is reached), the node SHOULD
>>    declare the child as unreachable.  This can happen for example when
>>    the child node is switched off.
>>
>>    When a neighbor is declared unreachable, the node MUST remove all
>>    negotiated cells with that neighbor from its own schedule.  In
>>    addition, it MAY issue a 6P CLEAR to that neighbor (which can fail at
>>    the link-layer). The node MAY be removed from the neighbor table.
>>
>>
>> If this is good for you, I will update the MSF to 07 with this change an=
d
>> propose WGLC right after.
>> Thanks!
>>
>> Tengfei
>>
>> On Fri, Oct 11, 2019 at 1:09 PM Christian Hopfner <
>> christian.hopfner@endress.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi authors,
>>>
>>> I may raise a clarification question before issuing WGLC for this draft=
.
>>>
>>> In the past there was a section in the draft dealing with neighbor
>>> polling which seems to me beeing an important topic in terms of schedul=
e
>>> consistency.
>>>
>>> In the latest version I don't see a mechanism which explains how a
>>> parent keeps its schedule clean after some children silently disappeare=
d
>>> (e.g.. batteries are gone). As per my understanding in such a case the
>>> negotiated RX cell towards the child remains in the schedule forever ri=
ght?
>>>
>>> Previously this was handled by neighbor polling. Which required the
>>> parent to send KA packets in a periodic manner to its childset. (This c=
ould
>>> be identified by evaluation of the neighbor set where a negotiated RX c=
ell
>>> was scheduled to)
>>>
>>> What is the idea now how to deal with that issue?
>>>
>>>
>>> Mit freundlichen Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fen I Best regards
>>>
>>> Christian Hopfner
>>> ------------------------------
>>> Developer | TPI F&E Plattform Informatik
>>> Endress+Hauser SE+Co. KG | Hauptstrasse 1 | 79689 Maulburg | Germany
>>> Phone: +49 7622 28 1883
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>>
>>
>> --
>> =E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=
=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=
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=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94
>>
>> Dr. Tengfei, Chang
>> Postdoctoral Research Engineer, Inria
>>
>> www.tcahng.org
>> =E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=
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>> _______________________________________________
>> 6tisch mailing list
>> 6tisch@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/6tisch
>>
>

--=20
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Dr. Tengfei, Chang
Postdoctoral Research Engineer, Inria

www.tcahng.org
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<div dir=3D"ltr">Thanks=C2=A0Abdussalam for the comments, I updated the tex=
t as following:=C2=A0<div><br></div><div><pre style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap=
;font-size:13.3333px;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;break-before:page;col=
or:rgb(0,0,0)">   The node SHOULD send some form of keep-alive messages to =
all its
   neighbors it has negotiated cell with. The node sends a keep-</pre><pre =
style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap;font-size:13.3333px;margin-top:0px;margin-bot=
tom:0px;break-before:page;color:rgb(0,0,0)">   alive message to the neighbo=
r if no frames is received from that </pre><pre style=3D"white-space:pre-wr=
ap;font-size:13.3333px;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;break-before:page;c=
olor:rgb(0,0,0)">   neighbor within a period, which is defined as KA_PERIOD=
. This mechanism</pre><pre style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap;font-size:13.3333p=
x;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;break-before:page;color:rgb(0,0,0)">   i=
s used to poll its children to ensure the child is still reachable. </pre><=
pre style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap;font-size:13.3333px;margin-top:0px;margin=
-bottom:0px;break-before:page;color:rgb(0,0,0)">   If the keep-alive messag=
e to a child fails at the link layer (i.e. </pre><pre style=3D"white-space:=
pre-wrap;font-size:13.3333px;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;break-before:=
page;color:rgb(0,0,0)">   the maximum number of link-layer retries is reach=
ed), the node </pre><pre style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap;font-size:13.3333px;=
margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;break-before:page;color:rgb(0,0,0)">   SHO=
ULD declare the child as unreachable. This can happen for example </pre><pr=
e style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap;font-size:13.3333px;margin-top:0px;margin-b=
ottom:0px;break-before:page;color:rgb(0,0,0)">   when the child node is swi=
tched off.</pre><pre style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap;font-size:13.3333px;marg=
in-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;break-before:page;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><br></pre>=
<pre style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap;font-size:13.3333px;margin-top:0px;margi=
n-bottom:0px;break-before:page;color:rgb(0,0,0)">   When a neighbor is decl=
ared unreachable, the node MUST remove all
   negotiated cells with that neighbor from its own schedule.  In
   addition, it MAY issue a 6P CLEAR to that neighbor (which can fail at
   the link-layer). The node MAY be removed from the neighbor table.</pre><=
pre style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap;font-size:13.3333px;margin-top:0px;margin=
-bottom:0px;break-before:page;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><br></pre>Does this read go=
od to you?<br><br>Tengfei<div><br></div><div><br></div></div></div><br><div=
 class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Fri, Oct 11=
, 2019 at 5:06 PM Abdussalam Baryun &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:abdussalambaryun@=
gmail.com">abdussalambaryun@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote c=
lass=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px soli=
d rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Hi Tengfei,</div=
><div><br></div><div>I am interested like Christian to see the poll mechani=
sm into this draft. I don&#39;t think it is right to refer to RFC7554 (prob=
lem statement) which is an informational RFC, while this draft is a propose=
d standard, I think it is better to state the mechanism into the use case o=
f minimum scheduling. Furthermore, the RFC7554 does not mention once Keep-A=
live message,=C2=A0but mentions signalling messages, which may confuse user=
s.</div><div><br></div><div>Best regards</div><div>AB<br></div></div><br><d=
iv class=3D"gmail_quote"><div class=3D"gmail_attr" dir=3D"ltr">On Fri, Oct =
11, 2019 at 3:41 PM Tengfei Chang &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:tengfei.chang@gmail=
.com" target=3D"_blank">tengfei.chang@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><bl=
ockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;padding-le=
ft:1ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204)"><div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Christia=
n,<div><br></div><div><div>Thanks for pointing this issue out!=C2=A0</div><=
div>The neighbor polling section is removed at 03 version. Can&#39;t rememb=
er why we removed it.</div><div><br></div><div>I re-edited this sections to=
 fit the current content of MSF draft. I paste it below. It will the be las=
t step of boot behavior after it starts sending EB and DIO.</div><br><pre s=
tyle=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-size:13.33px;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px=
;break-before:page">   The node SHOULD send some form of keep-alive message=
s to all its
   neighbors it has negotiated cell with.  The Keep-Alive (KA)
   mechanism is detailed in [<a title=3D"&quot;Using IEEE 802.15.4e Time-Sl=
otted Channel Hopping (TSCH) in the Internet of Things (IoT): Problem State=
ment&quot;" href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7554" target=3D"_blank">=
RFC7554</a>].  It uses the keep-alive messages
   to its preferred parent to stay synchronized.  It MAY use the keep-
   alive messages to other neighbors to have statistics on link quality.
   It MAY use the keep-alive messages to its children to ensure the
   child is still reachable.  The RECOMMENDED period for sending keep-
   alive messages is KA_PERIOD.
</pre><pre style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-size:13.33px;margin-top:0px;margi=
n-bottom:0px;break-before:page"><br></pre><pre style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);fo=
nt-size:13.33px;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;break-before:page">   If t=
he keep-alive message to a child fails at the link layer (i.e.
   the maximum number of link-layer retries is reached), the node SHOULD
   declare the child as unreachable.  This can happen for example when
   the child node is switched off.

   When a neighbor is declared unreachable, the node MUST remove all
   negotiated cells with that neighbor from its own schedule.  In
   addition, it MAY issue a 6P CLEAR to that neighbor (which can fail at
   the link-layer). The node MAY be removed from the neighbor table.<br></p=
re><pre style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-size:13.33px;margin-top:0px;margin-b=
ottom:0px;break-before:page"><br></pre>If this is good for you, I will upda=
te the MSF to 07 with this change and propose WGLC right after.=C2=A0</div>=
<div>Thanks!<br><br>Tengfei</div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div =
class=3D"gmail_attr" dir=3D"ltr">On Fri, Oct 11, 2019 at 1:09 PM Christian =
Hopfner &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:christian.hopfner@endress.com" target=3D"_bla=
nk">christian.hopfner@endress.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;padding-left:1ex;border-=
left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204)">




<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-ser=
if;font-size:12pt;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
Hi authors,</div>
<div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-ser=
if;font-size:12pt;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
<br>
</div>
<div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-ser=
if;font-size:12pt;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
I may raise a clarification question before issuing WGLC for this draft.</d=
iv>
<div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-ser=
if;font-size:12pt;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
<br>
</div>
<div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-ser=
if;font-size:12pt;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
In the past there was a section in the draft dealing with neighbor polling =
which seems to me beeing an important topic in terms of schedule consistenc=
y.</div>
<div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-ser=
if;font-size:12pt;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
<br>
</div>
<div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-ser=
if;font-size:12pt;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
In the latest version I don&#39;t see a mechanism which explains how a pare=
nt keeps its schedule clean after some children silently disappeared (e.g..=
 batteries are gone). As per my understanding in such a case the negotiated=
 RX cell towards the child remains in
 the schedule forever right?</div>
<div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-ser=
if;font-size:12pt;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
<br>
</div>
<div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-ser=
if;font-size:12pt;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
Previously this was handled by neighbor polling. Which required the parent =
to send KA packets in a periodic manner to its childset. (This could be ide=
ntified by evaluation of the neighbor set where a negotiated RX cell was sc=
heduled to)</div>
<div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-ser=
if;font-size:12pt;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
<br>
</div>
<div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-ser=
if;font-size:12pt;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
What is the idea now how to deal with that issue?</div>
<p><span style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt"><b=
r>Mit freundlichen Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fen I Best regards </span></p>
<p><span style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt">Ch=
ristian Hopfner </span></p>
<hr width=3D"550" size=3D"1" align=3D"left">
<span style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt">Devel=
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und-color:rgb(253,253,253)"><font color=3D"#000000" face=3D"monospace, mono=
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