Re: [6tisch] removing the 'e'

["Turner, Randy" <[e-mail]>]

Hi Pascal,

I agree with you in principal about the timing of 6tisch completion and
the availability of the final 802.15.4 rollup - I think they will be timed
pretty close so it would be nice to reference the rollup.

If by ³interim² you mean ³amendment², I believe there are quite a few stds
that refer to amendments with regards to requirements - 6tisch never
shipped before but there¹s quite a bit of code already written to 4e, not
only functional code, but diagnostic (sniffer) code as well, so if there
are changes required for the rollup, it would be unfortunate.

Ultimately I think we¹re bound by our charter, not any philosophical
thinking that we would ³like² to exist that says we do this or that -
philosophically I think it makes sense to refer to the rollup - it just
seems like the thing to do. However, we¹re bound by the charter that says
³The working group will focus on enabling IPv6 over the TSCH mode of
802.15.4e standard².

I would like to be able to refer to 2015 802.15.4 but frankly the news
about it being different than 4e (with regards to TSCH) surprised me.

Could someone elaborate on the deltas between 4e and 2015-802.15.4 for
TSCH ?

I guess our AD could ³green light² the reference either way, and like I
said, it would be nice to refer to the rollup ³for posterity²; meaning,
for future developers it would be nice if they could work with the more
current spec - I¹m in favor of the rollup if the differences I am hearing
about between 4e and the rollup are minimal.  If the changes are
significant, then from an IETF procedural standpoint, I think we would
need a ruling.

Randy



On 3/31/15, 2:49 AM, "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" <[e-mail]>
wrote:

>Hello Randy:
>
>I do agree that Kris is right, but probably not on the same point as you
>do here.  6TiSCH does not have much choice. We do not own 802.15.4, we
>reference it.
>And the question of backward compatibility does not really affect 6TiSCH
>since 6TiSCH never shipped before, and there certainly will be quite a
>development effort to build a 6TiSCH product anyway.
>
>6TiSCH cannot be locked referencing an interim specification, so there is
>no question in my mind that 6TiSCH will ultimately refer to the new
>standard when it ships. What we're after is the minimum hassle on that
>path.
>
>The question that was asked to the group is about the current charter,
>and the current WG docs that we are shipping to IESG, in particular
>minimal.
>If we keep referencing 15.4e, we will be creating a backward
>compatibility issue with ourselves, and that's probably not a good idea.
>I'm looking for a consensus to avoid that.
>
>Another aspect of that question is the plug test in Prague. Considering
>the time frame, it will be difficult for the implementations to migrate
>to 802.15.4-2015, and there may be interop problems at the MAC layer.
>What should we be shooting for?
>
>Pascal
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: 6tisch [mailto:[e-mail]] On Behalf Of Turner, Randy
>> Sent: lundi 30 mars 2015 20:27
>> To: Kris Pister; [e-mail]
>> Subject: Re: [6tisch] removing the 'e'
>> 
>> 
>> If Kris is correct, and compliance with the 15.4 rollup would cause
>>code changes
>> to existing 4e code, then I don't think it's a good idea to remove the
>>'e' -- if
>> existing 4e code would be interoperable with 15.4 rollup, then I guess
>> referencing the rollup (for posterity) would be a good idea.
>> 
>> Randy
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: 6tisch [mailto:[e-mail]] On Behalf Of Kris Pister
>> Sent: Monday, March 30, 2015 1:12 PM
>> To: [e-mail]
>> Subject: Re: [6tisch] removing the 'e'
>> 
>> I like the IETF approach better, but I don't think that we have much
>>choice.
>> If the roll-up from 15.4e to  15.4-2015 were just corrections of real
>>problems it
>> would be a no-brainer.
>> Unfortunately, there are numerous cases where IEEE members with "good
>> ideas"
>> have pushed for changes that have little or no practical value, but do
>>require a
>> re-write of existing code, and mandate non-interoperability between the
>> existing 15.4e and the forthcoming 15.4-2015.
>> 
>> ksjp
>> 
>> On 3/30/2015 8:23 AM, Pascal Thubert (pthubert) wrote:
>> > Dear all:
>> >
>> > Pat presented at the WG on Thursday his recommendation to remove the
>>'e'
>> after IEEE802.15.4 in our current charter and WG Documents (slides at
>>the end
>> of http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/92/slides/slides-92-6tisch-2.pdf ).
>> >
>> > The net effect would be that when a new version of the standard is
>>published -
>> 2015 should be available soon -, our normative references will
>>implicitly pick
>> that latest version and inherit the fixes that were made since then, as
>>well as the
>> additional PHYs on which 802.15.4 TSCH can operate.
>> >
>> > Pat indicated that this procedure is the expected one when referring
>>to IEEE
>> documents. Subir noted that at the IETF we normally have reference on
>> particular versions, and a change in an RFC is a new RFC thus a new
>>reference,
>> and the IEEE form of reference may create an issue with IETF practice.
>>The
>> chairs will need to validate this before proceeding.
>> >
>> > On the question whether the change is desirable, Pat made the case
>>that 15.4e
>> is just an amendment, which is an incomplete reference, and that it
>>yields some
>> incorrectness that is now fixed in the upcoming 2015 version of
>>802.15.4.
>> > All in all the group agreed that the change is desirable. We are now
>>coming to
>> the list to confirm the consensus. If you have an issue with removing
>>the 'e'
>> please speak up now.
>> >
>> > Cheers,
>> >
>> > Pascal and Thomas
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > 6tisch mailing list
>> > [e-mail]
>> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/6tisch
>> 
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