Re: [6tisch] removing the 'e'

[Subir Das <[e-mail]>]

Agree with what Brian said here. I think 802.15.4- 2011 is more appropriate
unless 802.15.4 - 2015 is published  by the IEEE-SA before the RFC is
published. If we choose to do 802.15.4-2015, then it would be good if WG
discusses and understands the impact to IETF document(s), if there is any.

-Subir


On Tue, Mar 31, 2015 at 8:21 AM, Brian Haberman <[e-mail]>
wrote:

> Pascal,
>
> On 3/31/15 2:58 AM, Pascal Thubert (pthubert) wrote:
> > Thanks a bunch Tom!
> >
> > I think that the case must be brought to the attention of the ADs,
> > CC’ing Brian. I’m unclear what the IETF best practice is for external
> > documents such as IEEE, but the IEC approach seems very well though
> > through. If we do not have such a detailed BCP, then this should be
> > exposed to the IAB.
>
> I am not aware of a BCP that discusses references to external documents.
>  Format-wise, that is the purview of the RFC Editor.  I am not sure why
> the IAB would care about references...
>
> I am generally leery of a blanket reference to the generic
> specification.  The WG has developed its solution based on a particular
> version of the IEEE specification, so I would expect to see references
> annotated by the year of the 15.4 spec.
>
> Regards,
> Brian
>
> >
> > Cheers,
> >
> > Pascal
> >
> > From: 6tisch [mailto:[e-mail]] On Behalf Of Tom
> > Phinney Sent: lundi 30 mars 2015 23:57 To: [e-mail] Subject:
> > Re: [6tisch] removing the 'e'
> >
> > Dear all:
> >
> > I was contributing a comment on this subject via the chat channel
> > when the Thursday meeting closed. Diego, who was managing the chat
> > channel, captured it and we subsequently have had the attached
> > exchange.
> >
> > In ISO and IEC standards the practice is to list the generic document
> > within the list of Normative References unless there are explicit
> > references to specific subclauses of the referenced document, in
> > which case a specific edition needs to be called out because
> > subclause numbering often change from one edition to the next.
> >
> > Thus, if a 6tisch document references subclause m.n.p within the new
> > 2015 edition of IEEE802.15.4, the reference would be to
> > IEEE802.15.4:2015, m.n.p. Otherwise the reference WITHIN the standard
> > is simply to IEEE802.15.4, without qualification as to the specific
> > edition. While such an unqualified reference presumes that material
> > on the referenced topic will not disappear from future editions of
> > IEEE802.15.4, such an assumption is almost always valid and leads to
> > much less confusion by those trying to use the standard over its
> > lifetime.
> >
> > The specific wording to cover both dated and undated references that
> > the latest version of the ISO/IEC editing directives itself uses is:
> >
> > The following documents, in whole or in part, are normatively
> > referenced in this document and are indispensable for its
> > application. For dated references, only the edition cited applies.
> > For undated references, the latest edition of the referenced document
> > (including any amendments) applies.
> >
> > The related text from the ISO/IEC editing directives with regard to
> > use of Normative References is:
> >
> > 6.2.2 Normative references
> >
> > This conditional element shall give a list of the referenced
> > documents cited (see 6.6.7.5) in the document in such a way as to
> > make them indispensable for the application of the document. For
> > dated references, each shall be given with its year of publication,
> > or, in the case of enquiry or final drafts, with a dash together with
> > a footnote “To be published.”, and full title. The year of
> > publication or dash shall not be given for undated references. When
> > an undated reference is to all parts of a document, the publication
> > number shall be followed by the indication “(all parts)” and the
> > general title of the series of parts (i.e. the introductory and main
> > elements, see Annex E).
> >
> > In principle, the referenced documents shall be documents published
> > by ISO and/or IEC. Documents published by other bodies may be
> > referred to in a normative manner provided that a) the referenced
> > document is recognized by the ISO and/or IEC committee concerned as
> > having wide acceptance and authoritative status as well as being
> > publicly available, b) the ISO and/or IEC committee concerned has
> > obtained the agreement of the authors or publishers (where known) of
> > the referenced document to its inclusion and to its being made
> > available as required — the authors or publishers will be expected to
> > make available such documents on request, c) the authors or
> > publishers (where known) have also agreed to inform the ISO and/or
> > IEC committee concerned of their intention to revise the referenced
> > document and of the points the revision will concern, and d) the ISO
> > and/or IEC committee concerned undertakes to review the situation in
> > the light of any changes in the referenced document.
> >
> > The list shall be introduced by the following wording: “The following
> > documents, in whole or in part, are normatively referenced in this
> > document and are indispensable for its application. For dated
> > references, only the edition cited applies. For undated references,
> > the latest edition of the referenced document (including any
> > amendments) applies.”
> >
> > The above wording is also applicable to a part of a multipart
> > document.
> >
> > The list shall not include the following: • referenced documents
> > which are not publicly available; • referenced documents which are
> > only cited in an informative manner; • referenced documents which
> > have merely served as bibliographic or background material in the
> > preparation of the document.
> >
> > Such referenced documents may be listed in a bibliography (see
> > 6.4.2).
> >
> > An example from the same ISO/IEC Directives, Part 2 document
> > demonstrates proper dated-citation usage, including usage of the date
> > only as necessary to reduce ambiguity:
> >
> > D.1.1 Scope of rules and examples provided in Annex D
> >
> > Annex D provides a synthesis of the rules and examples given in ISO
> > 10241-1:2011, and is intended to cover those rules applicable to the
> > forms of terms and definitions most commonly present in ISO and IEC
> > standards. For the complete set of rules and examples, refer to ISO
> > 10241-1.
> >
> >
> >
> > It seems likely that actual references to the 2015 edition of
> > IEEE802.15.4 will, in fact, need to cite specific subclauses. If that
> > is the case, then this entire discussion of whether or not to cite
> > the edition is moot, because such citations are essential to ensure
> > that any specific sublclause references actually point to relevant
> > text.
> >
> > -Tom
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________ 6tisch mailing list
> > [e-mail] https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/6tisch
> >
>
>
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