[72attendees] Meeting arrangements and costs (was: Re: Clarifying Host Responsibilities )
John C Klensin <john+ietf@jck.com> Sun, 03 August 2008 14:10 UTC
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Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2008 10:10:58 -0400
From: John C Klensin <john+ietf@jck.com>
To: Randall Gellens <rg+ietf@qualcomm.com>, Kurt Erik Lindqvist <kurtis@kurtis.pp.se>
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Subject: [72attendees] Meeting arrangements and costs (was: Re: Clarifying Host Responsibilities )
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--On Saturday, 02 August, 2008 06:30 -0700 Randall Gellens <rg+ietf@qualcomm.com> wrote: > At 1:07 AM +0200 7/29/08, Kurt Erik Lindqvist wrote: > >> "the powers that be" are trying to optimize location / >> internationalization / the host that PAYs preferences to >> location for their needs / and a number of factors including >> availability of a hotel. This equation is far from easy, but >> what worries me greatly is that we in the future find any >> hosts at all given that the only thing you can expect as a >> host is complaints and endless threads about visa / robbery >> / cookies / how the showers works threads on mailinglist. > > Well, if we don't care about visa issues, crime, cookies, nor > showers, I'm sure there are a *lot* of places we could meet! > :-) Let me add two comments to Randy's, noting that this is not about the facilities for IETF 72 at all (and that I waited until now to post this in the hope of avoiding confusion of what I'm about to say with a complaint about that particular location). (1) Ray advertised these per-meeting lists as the place to post information about, and issues with, the meeting before and during it. While my personal opinion is that some of the threads (including this one and the earlier/related Guestroom Network one), and some of the complaining/ whining went on much too long, if you (the IAOC) don't want the input, don't ask for it. And, if you don't think the hotel or host doesn't want to hear the input, don't tell them about the list. (2) I note with some chagrin that Kurt's optimization list of "location / internationalization / the host that PAYs preferences to location for their needs / and a number of factors including availability of a hotel" does not include "total cost to attendees". Given that we come from different locations and have different needs, I don't even know how IAOC figures that out, but I'm worried that it periodically does not appear to have been high on the consideration list. To repeat something I suggested just before this meeting, even if the IAOC cannot optimize for total cost of attendance, I believe that the IAOC and Secretariat should be able to determine and post, well before the meeting, estimates of local contributing costs -- options for airport transport and their costs; typical costs of meals in hotel restaurants and other restaurants within short distances; ranges of food choices available; maybe local air quality reports; whether the hotel guestroom network was to be lashed up to the IETF one or kept separate (and, if the latter, what it was going to cost guests); whether the terminal room arrangements will be made by an experience team under contract to the IETF or by a sponsor and what is expected; transport plans to and from the city center if that is relevant; and so on. I think others in the community can add to that list, but with the understanding that the items on it are data to be collected and reported rather than things we really expect IAOC to use as criteria. I think it is a wonderful accomplishment of the IAOC/IASA model that we now have meeting dates set well into future and sites lined up a year or so in advance rather than carrying out that process on a just-in-time basis. I am extremely impressed by the degree to which sponsors and the Secretariat have been able to remedy problems once they have occurred, whether those be problems with networks, problems with room environments (meeting rooms or sleeping rooms); alternate transport arrangements, and so on. But I believe we need to get far more of those activities, and the likely need for them, into the long-term understanding and planning process, rather than dealing with them "just in time" or a tad later. As with hotel construction, I don't believe that we should try to constrain IAOC to avoid a location that is likely to be suboptimal on one of these characteristics. But I do believe that IETF participants should have information sufficiently far in advance that we can make rational decisions about whether to attend. With information on a timely basis, if the overall choice of location and facilities does not meet the needs of one of us, then he or she has a better ranger of options, including remote participation. Clearly having those options might stop a lot of the endless whining that others have complained about -- if I have the ability to make a truly informed choice, than I can't very well complain about its consequences. And, its IAOC selects a site and a significant fraction of the community decides to vote with its feet and participate remotely (or, with many site arrangements, even just stay elsewhere), that would be measurable and unambiguous wrt appropriate criteria for future meeting site selection. john _______________________________________________ 72attendees mailing list 72attendees@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/72attendees
- [72attendees] Guestroom Network not under NOC Con… LANGE Andrew
- Re: [72attendees] Guestroom Network not under NOC… Balazs Lengyel
- [72attendees] Clarifying Host Responsibilities (w… Soininen Jonne (NSN FI/Espoo)
- Re: [72attendees] Clarifying Host Responsibilitie… GOLDMAN, STUART O (STUART)
- Re: [72attendees] Clarifying Host Responsibilitie… Iljitsch van Beijnum
- Re: [72attendees] Clarifying Host Responsibilitie… Thomas Walsh
- Re: [72attendees] Clarifying Host Responsibilitie… Kurt Erik Lindqvist
- Re: [72attendees] Clarifying Host Responsibilitie… Kurt Erik Lindqvist
- Re: [72attendees] Clarifying Host Responsibilitie… Bill Fenner
- Re: [72attendees] Clarifying Host Responsibilitie… Marshall Eubanks
- Re: [72attendees] Clarifying Host Responsibilitie… Eric Gray
- Re: [72attendees] Guestroom Network not under NOC… Paul Hoffman
- [72attendees] Found - YubiKey Spencer Dawkins
- Re: [72attendees] Clarifying Host Responsibilitie… Iljitsch van Beijnum
- Re: [72attendees] Clarifying Host Responsibilitie… Lloyd Wood
- Re: [72attendees] Clarifying Host Responsibilitie… Kurt Erik Lindqvist
- Re: [72attendees] Clarifying Host Responsibilitie… JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: [72attendees] Clarifying Host Responsibilitie… Thomas Froment
- Re: [72attendees] Clarifying Host Responsibilitie… Dale Worley
- Re: [72attendees] Clarifying Host Responsibilitie… Spencer Dawkins
- Re: [72attendees] Clarifying Host Responsibilitie… Soininen Jonne (NSN FI/Espoo)
- Re: [72attendees] Clarifying Host Responsibilitie… Kurt Erik Lindqvist
- [72attendees] Moving to social event gregory.cauchie
- Re: [72attendees] Moving to social event Francis Dupont
- Re: [72attendees] Clarifying Host Responsibilitie… Ed Jankiewicz
- Re: [72attendees] Moving to social event Romascanu, Dan (Dan)
- Re: [72attendees] Clarifying Host Responsibilitie… Stephane Bortzmeyer
- Re: [72attendees] Clarifying Host Responsibilitie… Livingood, Jason
- Re: [72attendees] Clarifying Host Responsibilitie… Dave Crocker
- Re: [72attendees] Clarifying Host Responsibilitie… Rosen, Brian
- Re: [72attendees] Clarifying Host Responsibilitie… Derek Atkins
- Re: [72attendees] Clarifying Host Responsibilitie… Christopher LILJENSTOLPE
- Re: [72attendees] Clarifying Host Responsibilitie… Ole Jacobsen
- Re: [72attendees] Clarifying Host Responsibilitie… Ole Jacobsen
- Re: [72attendees] Clarifying Host Responsibilitie… Dave Crocker
- Re: [72attendees] Clarifying Host Responsibilitie… Dave Crocker
- Re: [72attendees] Clarifying Host Responsibilitie… Ole Jacobsen
- Re: [72attendees] Clarifying Host Responsibilitie… Dave Crocker
- Re: [72attendees] Clarifying Host Responsibilitie… Dave Crocker
- Re: [72attendees] Clarifying Host Responsibilitie… Dave Crocker
- Re: [72attendees] Clarifying Host Responsibilitie… Dave Crocker
- Re: [72attendees] Clarifying Host Responsibilitie… JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: [72attendees] Clarifying Host Responsibilitie… Soininen Jonne (NSN FI/Espoo)
- Re: [72attendees] Clarifying Host Responsibilitie… JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: [72attendees] Clarifying Host Responsibilitie… Randall Gellens
- [72attendees] Meeting arrangements and costs (was… John C Klensin
- Re: [72attendees] Meeting arrangements and costs … Kurt Erik Lindqvist
- Re: [72attendees] Meeting arrangements and costs … John C Klensin
- Re: [72attendees] Meeting arrangements and costs Dave Crocker
- Re: [72attendees] Meeting arrangements and costs … Kurt Erik Lindqvist
- Re: [72attendees] Meeting arrangements and costs … Dale Worley
- Re: [72attendees] Meeting arrangements and costs … Mary Barnes
- Re: [72attendees] Meeting arrangements and costs … Ted Lemon
- Re: [72attendees] Meeting arrangements and costs … Ole Jacobsen
- Re: [72attendees] Meeting arrangements and costs Joel Jaeggli
- Re: [72attendees] Meeting arrangements and costs … Ondřej Surý
- Re: [72attendees] Meeting arrangements and costs … Patrik Fältström
- Re: [72attendees] Meeting arrangements and costs … Ondřej Surý