Re: [78attendees] We'll meet again...

"Elwell, John" <> Thu, 12 August 2010 06:52 UTC

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From: "Elwell, John" <>
To: Mary Barnes <>, "" <>
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2010 08:53:15 +0200
Thread-Topic: [78attendees] We'll meet again...
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Subject: Re: [78attendees] We'll meet again...
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Picking up only on the issue of cost, I found the overall cost of Maastricht a lot less than Anaheim (even after adjusting for lower flight cost and one day shorter stay). Food certainly was cheaper, plus the fact that my hotel rate included a decent breakfast - not the case in Anaheim.


> -----Original Message-----
> From: 
> [] On Behalf Of Mary Barnes
> Sent: 11 August 2010 16:39
> To:
> Subject: Re: [78attendees] We'll meet again...
> I also agree with Joe's point.  While I found Dublin to be a 
> great place to spend time and found that once I reached the 
> city, the choice of places to eat was excellent, having a 
> meeting at such a remote location is not a good thing.  
> Maastricht also had some excellent restaurants once I got 
> back to the city at the end of the day.  But, I did not 
> consider the cities in general to be a good choice for a 
> business meeting.  For many of us, the week is extremely 
> grueling and we have to manage on very few hours of sleep. 
> When the venue, hotels and places to eat are not conveniently 
> located, extra time is added to our already very busy days.   
> The one thing that I really liked about Dublin was that there 
> were buses provided so that we didn't have to find our way 
> back to the venue on our own.  It was extremely helpful and 
> very much appreciated that we were provided access to the 
> buses in Maastricht to get us to and from the venue, however, 
> that did result in some of us having to make our way back on 
> our to our hotels at night.  This concern may not be one that 
> others encounter, but as a female traveling alone, wandering 
> around a city where I am not familiar with areas where I 
> should and shouldn't be on my own is a big concern.  
> Certainly, there are enough IETF gentlemen that I can 
> generally find someone to walk with me. However, that is 
> inconvenient for them and in one case it was suggested that I 
> could walk to the hotel by myself since the individual (a 
> male) said it was safe.  That was an uncomfortable situation 
> for me since the city center in Maastricht (in particular the 
> side street where my hotel was located) is quite deserted at 
> nite and the only people I encountered were  hanging out in 
> front of a "coffee" house.  When I took a self defense class, 
> I was taught that the most effective way to avoid problems is 
> to not put yourself in a situation where I might be 
> vulnerable.  I have traveled to many places all over the 
> world on my own and in general avoid being out at night until 
> I've been able to assess the situation, which I do by seeing 
> how many females I see out alone at nite.  In general, I have 
> found major cities that are open 24 hours, so to speak, as 
> very safe places since there is safety in numbers, if you 
> will.  I have no fears about traveling around midtown NYC or 
> central London or Paris on my own. In my experience, the 
> least safe places for me to be alone at night are towns that 
> pretty much shutdown by around 10 pm at nite or in areas of 
> cities that I know are not particularly safe.  I live in a 
> small town and can tell you that the same bad things can 
> happen in small towns that happen in big towns. 
> Again, I know that my concerns only apply to a very small 
> subset of IETF participants, but I have to wonder if it isn't 
> this safety concern that prevents more women from being 
> actively involved in IETF. It takes far more guts for a woman 
> to travel to unknown cities on her own than it does to deal 
> with folks in the IETF.  Statisically, one would expect IETF 
> to have the same percentage of female participants as there 
> are women in computer science. Unfortunately, that number is 
> around 10%, but my guess is that the percentage of women that 
> attend IETF is around 5%.
> So, I strongly encourage the folks that plan the meetings to 
> consider the safety factor associated with a venue that is 
> not located in a city center with convenient acess to 
> restuarants (that serve food beyond 10pm).  And, based on my 
> previous comments on the list, access to food markets is also 
> very important for folks that are on restricted diets for 
> medical reasons.  I had to skip a WG session that I really 
> should have attended to go to the market in Maastricht (the 
> nite after I did not receive the meal I ordered at the hotel 
> restaurant).  I also realize this isn't an issue for the 
> majority of participants, but I would hope folks could have 
> some empathy for those of us that go without many meals at 
> the IETF meetings (I'm still down 5 pounds since that meeting 
> and that raises a big flag with my doctor).  Just consider 
> how you would feel if the only food that you could eat in 
> Maastricht for lunch was a salad or if the only snacks 
> available at breaks was veggies (which I personally really 
> appreciate). 
> And, while I'm on the topic of why I did not find Maastricht 
> to be a good place for a business meeting, the fact that we 
> could only buy train tickets at the station between 10am and 
> 5:30 pm is another negative.  In Yokohama, we were able to 
> purchase our train tickets at the venue - that was extremely 
> helpful. That would have been really nice in Maastricht.
> I also don't buy into the idea that these smaller cities are 
> less expensive. The transportation expenses and extra travel 
> time have already been raised.  My guess is that the less 
> expensive part in these smaller/out of the way venues is the 
> meeting space. Personally, I'd prefer to pay a higher meeting 
> fee and have the meeting in a large, easily accessible city. 
> In my experience, you can find reasonably priced hotels in 
> many major cities. For example, the hotel that I stayed in in 
> Paris after the meeting was 30 Euros a nite less than my 
> hotel in Maastricht (same class of hotel). And, the subway in 
> Paris is very inexpensive.  I found the venue in Paris in 
> 2005 to be perfect - there was even a market located in the 
> shopping center connected to the hotel/venue.  
> Regards,
> Mary.  
> On Mon, Aug 9, 2010 at 9:21 AM, Haibin Song 
> <> wrote:
> 	> This is less an issue with city size than with venue 
> location within the
> 	> city. IMO, Hiroshima, Stockholm, Anaheim, and 
> Vancouver had this, but
> 	> Maastricht and Dublin's venues (NOT the cities) made 
> the week more
> 	> difficult than it needed to be.
> 	I agree. I'm also very happy if the host can find some 
> nice and convenient locations within cities like Tokyo and 
> Beijing, where you can have restaurants in walking distance, 
> and where that is not so crowded and noisy.
> 	Haibin
> 	> -----Original Message-----
> 	> From: 
> []
> 	> On Behalf Of Joe Touch
> 	> Sent: Friday, August 06, 2010 10:01 PM
> 	> To: Ole Jacobsen
> 	> Cc:
> 	> Subject: Re: [78attendees] We'll meet again...
> 	>
> 	> Hi, all,
> 	>
> 	> I too enjoyed visiting Maastricht, and like the idea 
> of not always going
> 	> to the same large places repeatedly, and don't mind a 
> brief (2-hour or
> 	> less) train ride after a flight.
> 	>
> 	> That said, I would appreciate future locations be 
> less 'pinned', i.e.,
> 	> where at least some alternatives (for lunch, [brewed] 
> coffee, or just to
> 	> take a break) were available within a reasonably brief walk.
> 	>
> 	> This is less an issue with city size than with venue 
> location within the
> 	> city. IMO, Hiroshima, Stockholm, Anaheim, and 
> Vancouver had this, but
> 	> Maastricht and Dublin's venues (NOT the cities) made 
> the week more
> 	> difficult than it needed to be.
> 	>
> 	> Joe
> 	>
> 	> On 8/6/2010 8:09 AM, Ole Jacobsen wrote:
> 	> >
> 	> > Cities like Maastricht and Hiroshima offer the "all 
> in one place"
> 	> > experience. Pretty much everything your would want 
> to see/buy/eat
> 	> > could be gotten to by foot, a short cab ride or 
> even the tram.
> 	> > This is also very much true for places like Oslo, 
> Vancouver, and
> 	> > yes Amsterdam (apart from the separation of venue 
> and hotels for
> 	> > an event as large as the IETF).
> 	> >
> 	> > This has a lot more to do with geography than it 
> has to do with
> 	> > population density.
> 	> >
> 	> > Ole
> 	> >
> 	> > Ole J. Jacobsen
> 	> > Editor and Publisher,  The Internet Protocol Journal
> 	> > Cisco Systems
> 	> > Tel: +1 408-527-8972   Mobile: +1 415-370-4628
> 	> > E-mail:  URL:
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