Re: [78attendees] We'll meet again...
"Elwell, John" <john.elwell@siemens-enterprise.com> Thu, 12 August 2010 06:52 UTC
Return-Path: <john.elwell@siemens-enterprise.com>
X-Original-To: 78attendees@core3.amsl.com
Delivered-To: 78attendees@core3.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0ACE73A6990 for <78attendees@core3.amsl.com>; Wed, 11 Aug 2010 23:52:44 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -102.766
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.766 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.167, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100]
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9eNPpi9xpmZm for <78attendees@core3.amsl.com>; Wed, 11 Aug 2010 23:52:42 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from ms02.m0019.fra.mmp.de.bt.com (m0019.fra.mmp.de.bt.com [62.180.227.30]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E68D33A6967 for <78attendees@ietf.org>; Wed, 11 Aug 2010 23:52:41 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from senmx11-mx ([62.134.46.9] [62.134.46.9]) by ms02.m0020.fra.mmp.de.bt.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-1145696; Thu, 12 Aug 2010 08:53:17 +0200
Received: from MCHP063A.global-ad.net (unknown [172.29.37.61]) by senmx11-mx (Server) with ESMTP id 91C191EB82AB; Thu, 12 Aug 2010 08:53:17 +0200 (CEST)
Received: from MCHP058A.global-ad.net ([172.29.37.55]) by MCHP063A.global-ad.net ([172.29.37.61]) with mapi; Thu, 12 Aug 2010 08:53:17 +0200
From: "Elwell, John" <john.elwell@siemens-enterprise.com>
To: Mary Barnes <mary.ietf.barnes@gmail.com>, "78attendees@ietf.org" <78attendees@ietf.org>
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2010 08:53:15 +0200
Thread-Topic: [78attendees] We'll meet again...
Thread-Index: Acs5a1AHt5Omhf0mTIaYlTWSzpmoygAfweGg
Message-ID: <A444A0F8084434499206E78C106220CA01C46B4F67@MCHP058A.global-ad.net>
References: <4C528047.20008@sidn.nl> <C2D311A6F086424F99E385949ECFEBCB03453A16@CORPUSMX80B.corp.emc.com> <4C5288FF.7000102@att.com> <4C53159C.2040806@ogud.com> <5CC58151-05C5-45CE-BCE6-13A6BF3731D3@nominum.com> <A4C6A166C36F5F40A5767E6F66358FC090ED0CF769@EMBX01-WF.jnpr.net> <20100806042805.GA7232@nsn.com> <CD5674C3CD99574EBA7432465FC13C1B21FE98EF7C@DC-US1MBEX4.global.avaya.com> <A4C6A166C36F5F40A5767E6F66358FC090ED0CFC6E@EMBX01-WF.jnpr.net> <Pine.GSO.4.63.1008060746460.5592@pita.cisco.com> <4C5C69E7.6070205@isi.edu> <001701cb37ce$2b810ee0$82832ca0$@com> <AANLkTi=dH+mO=AhiEd6k8sr13vOzeHo-gHS80BLyJ_eB@mail.gmail.com>
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTi=dH+mO=AhiEd6k8sr13vOzeHo-gHS80BLyJ_eB@mail.gmail.com>
Accept-Language: en-US
Content-Language: en-US
X-MS-Has-Attach:
X-MS-TNEF-Correlator:
acceptlanguage: en-US
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
MIME-Version: 1.0
Subject: Re: [78attendees] We'll meet again...
X-BeenThere: 78attendees@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9
Precedence: list
List-Id: IETF 78 attendees list <78attendees.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/78attendees>, <mailto:78attendees-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/78attendees>
List-Post: <mailto:78attendees@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:78attendees-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/78attendees>, <mailto:78attendees-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2010 06:52:44 -0000
Picking up only on the issue of cost, I found the overall cost of Maastricht a lot less than Anaheim (even after adjusting for lower flight cost and one day shorter stay). Food certainly was cheaper, plus the fact that my hotel rate included a decent breakfast - not the case in Anaheim. John > -----Original Message----- > From: 78attendees-bounces@ietf.org > [mailto:78attendees-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Mary Barnes > Sent: 11 August 2010 16:39 > To: 78attendees@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [78attendees] We'll meet again... > > I also agree with Joe's point. While I found Dublin to be a > great place to spend time and found that once I reached the > city, the choice of places to eat was excellent, having a > meeting at such a remote location is not a good thing. > Maastricht also had some excellent restaurants once I got > back to the city at the end of the day. But, I did not > consider the cities in general to be a good choice for a > business meeting. For many of us, the week is extremely > grueling and we have to manage on very few hours of sleep. > When the venue, hotels and places to eat are not conveniently > located, extra time is added to our already very busy days. > > The one thing that I really liked about Dublin was that there > were buses provided so that we didn't have to find our way > back to the venue on our own. It was extremely helpful and > very much appreciated that we were provided access to the > buses in Maastricht to get us to and from the venue, however, > that did result in some of us having to make our way back on > our to our hotels at night. This concern may not be one that > others encounter, but as a female traveling alone, wandering > around a city where I am not familiar with areas where I > should and shouldn't be on my own is a big concern. > Certainly, there are enough IETF gentlemen that I can > generally find someone to walk with me. However, that is > inconvenient for them and in one case it was suggested that I > could walk to the hotel by myself since the individual (a > male) said it was safe. That was an uncomfortable situation > for me since the city center in Maastricht (in particular the > side street where my hotel was located) is quite deserted at > nite and the only people I encountered were hanging out in > front of a "coffee" house. When I took a self defense class, > I was taught that the most effective way to avoid problems is > to not put yourself in a situation where I might be > vulnerable. I have traveled to many places all over the > world on my own and in general avoid being out at night until > I've been able to assess the situation, which I do by seeing > how many females I see out alone at nite. In general, I have > found major cities that are open 24 hours, so to speak, as > very safe places since there is safety in numbers, if you > will. I have no fears about traveling around midtown NYC or > central London or Paris on my own. In my experience, the > least safe places for me to be alone at night are towns that > pretty much shutdown by around 10 pm at nite or in areas of > cities that I know are not particularly safe. I live in a > small town and can tell you that the same bad things can > happen in small towns that happen in big towns. > > Again, I know that my concerns only apply to a very small > subset of IETF participants, but I have to wonder if it isn't > this safety concern that prevents more women from being > actively involved in IETF. It takes far more guts for a woman > to travel to unknown cities on her own than it does to deal > with folks in the IETF. Statisically, one would expect IETF > to have the same percentage of female participants as there > are women in computer science. Unfortunately, that number is > around 10%, but my guess is that the percentage of women that > attend IETF is around 5%. > > So, I strongly encourage the folks that plan the meetings to > consider the safety factor associated with a venue that is > not located in a city center with convenient acess to > restuarants (that serve food beyond 10pm). And, based on my > previous comments on the list, access to food markets is also > very important for folks that are on restricted diets for > medical reasons. I had to skip a WG session that I really > should have attended to go to the market in Maastricht (the > nite after I did not receive the meal I ordered at the hotel > restaurant). I also realize this isn't an issue for the > majority of participants, but I would hope folks could have > some empathy for those of us that go without many meals at > the IETF meetings (I'm still down 5 pounds since that meeting > and that raises a big flag with my doctor). Just consider > how you would feel if the only food that you could eat in > Maastricht for lunch was a salad or if the only snacks > available at breaks was veggies (which I personally really > appreciate). > > And, while I'm on the topic of why I did not find Maastricht > to be a good place for a business meeting, the fact that we > could only buy train tickets at the station between 10am and > 5:30 pm is another negative. In Yokohama, we were able to > purchase our train tickets at the venue - that was extremely > helpful. That would have been really nice in Maastricht. > > I also don't buy into the idea that these smaller cities are > less expensive. The transportation expenses and extra travel > time have already been raised. My guess is that the less > expensive part in these smaller/out of the way venues is the > meeting space. Personally, I'd prefer to pay a higher meeting > fee and have the meeting in a large, easily accessible city. > In my experience, you can find reasonably priced hotels in > many major cities. For example, the hotel that I stayed in in > Paris after the meeting was 30 Euros a nite less than my > hotel in Maastricht (same class of hotel). And, the subway in > Paris is very inexpensive. I found the venue in Paris in > 2005 to be perfect - there was even a market located in the > shopping center connected to the hotel/venue. > > Regards, > Mary. > > > On Mon, Aug 9, 2010 at 9:21 AM, Haibin Song > <melodysong@huawei.com> wrote: > > > > This is less an issue with city size than with venue > location within the > > city. IMO, Hiroshima, Stockholm, Anaheim, and > Vancouver had this, but > > Maastricht and Dublin's venues (NOT the cities) made > the week more > > difficult than it needed to be. > > I agree. I'm also very happy if the host can find some > nice and convenient locations within cities like Tokyo and > Beijing, where you can have restaurants in walking distance, > and where that is not so crowded and noisy. > > Haibin > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: 78attendees-bounces@ietf.org > [mailto:78attendees-bounces@ietf.org] > > On Behalf Of Joe Touch > > Sent: Friday, August 06, 2010 10:01 PM > > To: Ole Jacobsen > > Cc: 78attendees@ietf.org > > Subject: Re: [78attendees] We'll meet again... > > > > Hi, all, > > > > I too enjoyed visiting Maastricht, and like the idea > of not always going > > to the same large places repeatedly, and don't mind a > brief (2-hour or > > less) train ride after a flight. > > > > That said, I would appreciate future locations be > less 'pinned', i.e., > > where at least some alternatives (for lunch, [brewed] > coffee, or just to > > take a break) were available within a reasonably brief walk. > > > > This is less an issue with city size than with venue > location within the > > city. IMO, Hiroshima, Stockholm, Anaheim, and > Vancouver had this, but > > Maastricht and Dublin's venues (NOT the cities) made > the week more > > difficult than it needed to be. > > > > Joe > > > > On 8/6/2010 8:09 AM, Ole Jacobsen wrote: > > > > > > Cities like Maastricht and Hiroshima offer the "all > in one place" > > > experience. Pretty much everything your would want > to see/buy/eat > > > could be gotten to by foot, a short cab ride or > even the tram. > > > This is also very much true for places like Oslo, > Vancouver, and > > > yes Amsterdam (apart from the separation of venue > and hotels for > > > an event as large as the IETF). > > > > > > This has a lot more to do with geography than it > has to do with > > > population density. > > > > > > Ole > > > > > > Ole J. Jacobsen > > > Editor and Publisher, The Internet Protocol Journal > > > Cisco Systems > > > Tel: +1 408-527-8972 Mobile: +1 415-370-4628 > > > E-mail: ole@cisco.com URL: http://www.cisco.com/ipj > > _______________________________________________ > > 78attendees mailing list > > 78attendees@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/78attendees > > _______________________________________________ > 78attendees mailing list > 78attendees@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/78attendees > > > >
- [78attendees] We'll meet again... Marco Davids
- Re: [78attendees] We'll meet again... Fahd A. Batayneh
- Re: [78attendees] We'll meet again... Marshall Eubanks
- Re: [78attendees] We'll meet again... Scott Brim
- Re: [78attendees] We'll meet again... david.black
- Re: [78attendees] We'll meet again... Tony Hansen
- Re: [78attendees] We'll meet again... Olafur Gudmundsson
- Re: [78attendees] We'll meet again... Ted Lemon
- Re: [78attendees] We'll meet again... Thomas Walsh
- Re: [78attendees] We'll meet again... WORLEY, Dale R (Dale)
- Re: [78attendees] We'll meet again... David Kessens
- Re: [78attendees] We'll meet again... Monique Morrow (mmorrow)
- Re: [78attendees] We'll meet again... Sprecher, Nurit (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
- Re: [78attendees] We'll meet again... WORLEY, Dale R (Dale)
- Re: [78attendees] We'll meet again... Thomas Walsh
- Re: [78attendees] We'll meet again... Ole Jacobsen
- Re: [78attendees] We'll meet again... Spencer Dawkins
- Re: [78attendees] We'll meet again... Joe Touch
- Re: [78attendees] We'll meet again... Ole Jacobsen
- Re: [78attendees] We'll meet again... David Kessens
- Re: [78attendees] We'll meet again... joel jaeggli
- Re: [78attendees] We'll meet again... Ole Jacobsen
- Re: [78attendees] We'll meet again... K KIM
- Re: [78attendees] We'll meet again... Geert Jan de Groot
- Re: [78attendees] We'll meet again... Ted Lemon
- Re: [78attendees] We'll meet again... Haibin Song
- Re: [78attendees] We'll meet again... Mary Barnes
- Re: [78attendees] We'll meet again... Elwell, John
- Re: [78attendees] We'll meet again... Ted Lemon
- Re: [78attendees] We'll meet again... Mary Barnes
- Re: [78attendees] We'll meet again... K KIM
- Re: [78attendees] We'll meet again... Miquel van Smoorenburg
- Re: [78attendees] We'll meet again... Scott Brim
- Re: [78attendees] We'll meet again... Mary Barnes
- Re: [78attendees] We'll meet again... Joe Touch
- Re: [78attendees] We'll meet again... Scott Brim
- Re: [78attendees] We'll meet again... Ted Lemon
- Re: [78attendees] We'll meet again... Ted Lemon
- [78attendees] We gotta stop meeting like this (wa… Andrew Sullivan
- Re: [78attendees] We gotta stop meeting like this… Ted Lemon
- Re: [78attendees] We gotta stop meeting like this… Andrew Sullivan
- Re: [78attendees] We gotta stop meeting like this… Ted Lemon
- Re: [78attendees] We gotta stop meeting like this… Barry Leiba
- Re: [78attendees] We gotta stop meeting like this Peter Saint-Andre
- Re: [78attendees] We'll meet again... Lou Berger
- Re: [78attendees] We gotta stop meeting like this… Ted Lemon
- Re: [78attendees] We'll meet again... Randall Gellens
- Re: [78attendees] We'll meet again... Randall Gellens