Re: [81attendees] casual attendees & WG process
Curtis Villamizar <cvillamizar@infinera.com> Tue, 09 August 2011 17:01 UTC
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From: Curtis Villamizar <cvillamizar@infinera.com>
To: Randall Gellens <rg+ietf@qualcomm.com>, Yoav Nir <ynir@checkpoint.com>, Dae Young KIM <dykim@cnu.ac.kr>
Thread-Topic: [81attendees] casual attendees & WG process
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Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2011 17:02:28 +0000
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References: <4E34C3A9.2020502@att.com> <A5B9F059BE69461F8008EBECD84A1E67@china.huawei.com> <80A0822C5E9A4440A5117C2F4CD36A6402713C27@DEMUEXC006.nsn-intra.net> <3DA9637F-1C72-43CB-B040-49F2A6FF26D9@softarmor.com> <4E398F03.1000806@dcrocker.net> <CA6BA2FE-13E7-438F-B943-7659A37DB3C5@cisco.com> <744D8CA9-9C01-41A5-A22C-CDF2F4E904EF@fugue.com> <p06240611ca64d0f07a2b@loud.pensive.org> <alpine.OSX.2.01.1108072112110.14256@sjc-vpn7-506.cisco.com> <p06240601ca65afd19752@loud.pensive.org> <alpine.OSX.2.01.1108080830460.18801@sjc-vpn7-506.cisco.com> <CAFgODJfSOHdt-Lzz6bpnHSCSi5kLMu3Yjjh2xU5b35Dtwm5tRw@mail.gmail.com> <B819AC736B2D3745ADEA0C285E020CEB076127BF@SV-EXDB-PROD1.infinera.com> <CAFgODJecoePK7RX=+4DpwZ93qKE1HvjBq7vPOEkToxy0LfnOXg@mail.gmail.com> <FF871B758C55949D49F19663@PST.JCK.COM> <p0624061aca6632f15733@loud.pensive.org> <CAFgODJcgVbEQt0V7wJ9VOjdUvU=hArCiuyn8dOM7TBqVcS=q=Q@mail.gmail.com> <0339E737-3061-45BF-9A4F-E787EF45D48D@checkpoint.com> <B819AC736B2D3745ADEA0C285E020CEB07612B8E@SV-EXDB-PROD1.infinera.com> <p06240601ca6715beff81@loud.pensive.org>
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Cc: "81attendees@ietf.org" <81attendees@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [81attendees] casual attendees & WG process
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Yes. PS -> DS -> FS was a good process. Interoperable implementations and deployment experience are key. The routing area had in the past insisted on a higher criteria than the IETF in general which served it well. This process rigor has been diluted. Curtis > -----Original Message----- > From: Randall Gellens [mailto:rg+ietf@qualcomm.com] > Sent: Tuesday, August 09, 2011 9:53 AM > To: Curtis Villamizar; Yoav Nir; Dae Young KIM > Cc: 81attendees@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [81attendees] casual attendees & WG process > > At 3:11 PM +0000 8/9/11, Curtis Villamizar wrote: > > > We have lost touch with the "running code" part of "rough consensus > > and running code" and we may not be doing well on the "rough > > consensus" part either. We are headed toward the design by > > committee and voting methods used by other SDO along with including > > every half thought out feature anyone imagined during the process > > and no implementations. This leads to protocols that don't work > > with features that no one has ever implemented or where no one has > > ever succeeded in getting to interoperate among vendors. > > And of course, weeding this out was part of the three-stage maturity > process which we've pretty much abandoned: When it seems pretty > stable and has reached consensus and *looks* like a good idea, > publish as Proposed Standard. After a while, see who has actually > implemented it and which parts were implemented and interoperate. > Delete everything else, publish what's left as Draft Standard. After > a while, repeat but with a higher test (widespread implementation and > deployment) and publish as Standard. > > -- > Randall Gellens > Opinions are personal; facts are suspect; I speak for myself only > -------------- Randomly selected tag: --------------- > Those are my principles. If you don't like them I have others. > --Groucho Marx
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- Re: [81attendees] hijacked thread (was: connectio… Curtis Villamizar
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- Re: [81attendees] The perennial air connection/ h… Randall Gellens
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- Re: [81attendees] are we getting complacent? Good… Randall Gellens
- Re: [81attendees] are we getting complacent? Good… Randall Gellens
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- Re: [81attendees] are we getting complacent? Good… Randall Gellens
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- Re: [81attendees] are we getting complacent? Good… Adam Roach
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- Re: [81attendees] are we getting complacent? Good… Dae Young KIM
- Re: [81attendees] are we getting complacent? Good… Ted Lemon
- Re: [81attendees] diverse meeting locations (was:… Curtis Villamizar
- Re: [81attendees] The perennial air connection/ h… Randall Gellens
- Re: [81attendees] are we getting complacent? Good… Dae Young KIM
- Re: [81attendees] diverse meeting locations (was:… Dae Young KIM
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- Re: [81attendees] are we getting complacent? Good… Adam Roach
- Re: [81attendees] are we getting complacent? Good… Curtis Villamizar
- Re: [81attendees] diverse meeting locations Adam Roach
- Re: [81attendees] are we getting complacent? Good… Ole Jacobsen
- Re: [81attendees] diverse meeting locations (was:… Randy Bush
- Re: [81attendees] are we getting complacent? Good… Ole Jacobsen
- Re: [81attendees] diverse meeting locations (was:… Curtis Villamizar
- Re: [81attendees] diverse meeting locations (was:… Curtis Villamizar
- Re: [81attendees] diverse meeting locations (was:… Jim Martin
- Re: [81attendees] are we getting complacent? Good… Randall Gellens
- Re: [81attendees] diverse meeting locations (was:… Curtis Villamizar
- Re: [81attendees] diverse meeting locations (was:… John C Klensin
- Re: [81attendees] diverse meeting locations (was:… Dae Young KIM
- Re: [81attendees] diverse meeting locations Joe Touch
- Re: [81attendees] diverse meeting locations (was:… Randall Gellens
- Re: [81attendees] diverse meeting locations Dae Young KIM
- Re: [81attendees] diverse meeting locations (was:… Randy Bush
- Re: [81attendees] diverse meeting locations James M. Polk
- Re: [81attendees] diverse meeting locations (was:… Dae Young KIM
- Re: [81attendees] are we getting complacent? Good… Randy Bush
- Re: [81attendees] diverse meeting locations (was:… Randall Gellens
- Re: [81attendees] diverse meeting locations (was:… George Michaelson
- Re: [81attendees] diverse meeting locations (was:… Yoav Nir
- Re: [81attendees] diverse meeting locations (was:… Ted Lemon
- Re: [81attendees] diverse meeting locations (was:… Yoav Nir
- Re: [81attendees] diverse meeting locations (was:… Yoav Nir
- Re: [81attendees] diverse meeting locations (was:… DRAGE, Keith (Keith)
- Re: [81attendees] diverse meeting locations (was:… Burger Eric
- Re: [81attendees] diverse meeting locations (was:… Dae Young KIM
- Re: [81attendees] diverse meeting locations (was:… Ray Bellis
- Re: [81attendees] diverse meeting locations (was:… Randy Bush
- Re: [81attendees] diverse meeting locations (was:… Yoav Nir
- Re: [81attendees] diverse meeting locations (was:… Randy Bush
- Re: [81attendees] diverse meeting locations (was:… Nishal Goburdhan
- Re: [81attendees] diverse meeting locations (was:… Curtis Villamizar
- Re: [81attendees] casual attendees & WG process Curtis Villamizar
- Re: [81attendees] casual attendees & WG process Carlos M. Martinez
- Re: [81attendees] diverse meeting locations (was:… Curtis Villamizar
- Re: [81attendees] casual attendees & WG process Dae Young KIM
- Re: [81attendees] diverse meeting locations (was:… Curtis Villamizar
- Re: [81attendees] diverse meeting locations (was:… Warren Kumari
- Re: [81attendees] casual attendees & WG process Curtis Villamizar
- Re: [81attendees] diverse meeting locations (was:… Ray Bellis
- Re: [81attendees] diverse meeting locations (was:… Randy Bush
- Re: [81attendees] casual attendees & WG process -… Steve Crocker
- Re: [81attendees] casual attendees & WG process Dae Young KIM
- Re: [81attendees] casual attendees & WG process Randall Gellens
- Re: [81attendees] casual attendees & WG process Curtis Villamizar
- Re: [81attendees] casual attendees & WG process Curtis Villamizar
- Re: [81attendees] diverse meeting locations (was:… Randall Gellens
- Re: [81attendees] diverse meeting locations (was:… Randall Gellens
- Re: [81attendees] diverse meeting locations (was:… Randall Gellens
- Re: [81attendees] diverse meeting locations (was:… ALAIN AINA
- Re: [81attendees] divine meeting locations (was: … Ted Lemon
- Re: [81attendees] diverse meeting locations (was:… Ray Bellis
- Re: [81attendees] divine meeting locations Joe Touch
- Re: [81attendees] divine meeting locations Eric Vyncke (evyncke)
- Re: [81attendees] diverse meeting locations (was:… John C Klensin