IETF Logo Mail Archive

Re: [93attendees] Network experiment during the meeting

Ray Pelletier <rpelletier@isoc.org> Tue, 14 July 2015 17:18 UTC

Return-Path: <rpelletier@isoc.org>
X-Original-To: 93attendees@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: 93attendees@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9FE011ACE04 for <93attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Tue, 14 Jul 2015 10:18:15 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -101.902
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-101.902 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] autolearn=ham
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id y441yrgJVy3N for <93attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Tue, 14 Jul 2015 10:18:13 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from na01-bn1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-bn1bon0630.outbound.protection.outlook.com [IPv6:2a01:111:f400:fc10::1:630]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8B1C21ACE05 for <93attendees@ietf.org>; Tue, 14 Jul 2015 10:18:11 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from BLUPR0601MB1554.namprd06.prod.outlook.com (10.163.211.144) by BLUPR0601MB1524.namprd06.prod.outlook.com (10.163.86.15) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.1.213.14; Tue, 14 Jul 2015 17:18:05 +0000
Authentication-Results: hs-augsburg.de; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;
Received: from [192.168.0.17] (104.244.129.226) by BLUPR0601MB1554.namprd06.prod.outlook.com (10.163.211.144) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.1.213.14; Tue, 14 Jul 2015 17:18:00 +0000
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"
MIME-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 8.2 \(2098\))
From: Ray Pelletier <rpelletier@isoc.org>
In-Reply-To: <55A51C67.3000008@hs-augsburg.de>
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2015 13:19:09 -0400
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Message-ID: <5322CD92-286F-472B-BF12-92F6E7CA2B38@isoc.org>
References: <55A41BEB.3090102@hs-augsburg.de> <55A41FD7.5030906@dcrocker.net> <55A4B86B.3000907@hs-augsburg.de> <55A513C9.4030601@dcrocker.net> <55A5182E.9000504@Opus1.COM> <55A51C67.3000008@hs-augsburg.de>
To: Rolf Winter <rolf.winter@hs-augsburg.de>
X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.2098)
X-Originating-IP: [104.244.129.226]
X-ClientProxiedBy: CY1PR0801CA0012.namprd08.prod.outlook.com (25.163.136.150) To BLUPR0601MB1554.namprd06.prod.outlook.com (25.163.211.144)
X-Microsoft-Exchange-Diagnostics: 1; BLUPR0601MB1554; 2:d+9+7WOYgbdE/NEIqgRRfXXsSgcUS+rHh1/rx1aPuzPWmJeneOj2hMf9hu5eetod; 3:UsGnQfYWvgjTRP018qCkW+jq9KqrDX39u2GCtRffyxPGueghzlRho5wABR8DvfBCi+j7pEVYmHiAaMsfaewR8xoKx3ciaUrGg+Kg7Af8xMWOKjIuSjSHV0yqBOQLp8WGFsAr9GTRP0e39fmW0Fibxg==; 25:bNaONLvLdesPeCbdOaYp4RBTk8Y9hiy8/n4c/GDdhH9xBJ5e9eP6Li41sSwnLO64KyqZkwL/zPMh81cZGKXgjKUirFQ5vqCkCurUtFfsyYwAUbUqFWgrxHsHLl76NmXV+gyFvoS1nP9pEaPKRJP99e39rPKW1LaLUmrj11bjtrGB0I8OeFpCgNT1wpwA44kKxwvSDXD2cHrVz3Rn1EmAmlQH0TDeo94dYiPVc1McD/UD68V3ckeg7tvJu1InFjM8
X-Microsoft-Antispam: UriScan:; BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:; SRVR:BLUPR0601MB1554; UriScan:; BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:; SRVR:BLUPR0601MB1524;
X-Microsoft-Exchange-Diagnostics: 1; BLUPR0601MB1554; 20: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; 4:2qRVqLBl54WHRIMxsHoNoGTvzC8Dx6TPLXzQJA3kMCUOoJXjKbkiq6PUpd0h7pDKMwn8ijDdbskJ+jqDwdAkp1tMS2oRPQuTxPvY9iWpTTAwbVPw7nK6hsUQ0Gkp0FHKWjdrwYP3OeDyXwbJOH2cpFN8krpA1SMV/QV1w1a38iwclDFkJ01tMHvmgbCDJ0j8nLav+QSSekQaMAHr5qBFTzlXMIdYi9l0p1GrQvYa6Q5f7yDbtRZOGKofXSKjSJwjvT28Cki3WC+My6oR6gx/bDYbbvh/WqTsnX17R9yAq3U=
BLUPR0601MB1554: X-MS-Exchange-Organization-RulesExecuted
X-Microsoft-Antispam-PRVS: <BLUPR0601MB155429BBEB975CD087932C1DB09B0@BLUPR0601MB1554.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>
X-Exchange-Antispam-Report-Test: UriScan:;
X-Exchange-Antispam-Report-CFA-Test: BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(601004)(5005006)(3002001); SRVR:BLUPR0601MB1554; BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:; SRVR:BLUPR0601MB1554;
X-Forefront-PRVS: 0637FCE711
X-Forefront-Antispam-Report: SFV:NSPM; SFS:(10009020)(6009001)(6049001)(377454003)(479174004)(24454002)(51704005)(15975445007)(50466002)(77156002)(110136002)(189998001)(23746002)(76176999)(42186005)(87976001)(77096005)(19580395003)(19580405001)(82746002)(33656002)(62966003)(40100003)(57306001)(2950100001)(66066001)(5001960100002)(117156001)(83716003)(122386002)(93886004)(47776003)(50226001)(46102003)(86362001)(50986999)(36756003)(92566002)(104396002); DIR:OUT; SFP:1101; SCL:1; SRVR:BLUPR0601MB1554; H:[192.168.0.17]; FPR:; SPF:None; MLV:sfv; LANG:en;
X-Microsoft-Exchange-Diagnostics: 1; BLUPR0601MB1554; 23: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
X-Microsoft-Exchange-Diagnostics: 1; BLUPR0601MB1554; 5:hMONePKbeIZldvaLk1BQF/3+1ILDtwQL6kSzUqsSLjkYTwU9+UxDdUKa5Y57AKb8ciRw2RqAskQPULGgNClJecgayw6OpwPEeuJoTLKwclfyitVavG0SjYbp2f/wVD7p6kikqLbdWQ9Hp6UHxVHXuA==; 24:Q7styG3ijqddWPk4WPPZjo1tt9FrN5vLUGo2A20pHQcXXE42/5FLq+h6tXkn8rYCsYqLU4U0jp+bQ0WVkRE/oXk6YEMKOcDBdl4A1drF0+Y=; 20:VEG1F78azvVrRaEg5Wpg28qwRdcr7A6E5x/VEH5jm41+Lx5g54KXbkncBYXqtmkdEL7SvF3IGJ9LeqL/Not9JA==
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-OriginalArrivalTime: 14 Jul 2015 17:18:00.6664 (UTC)
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-FromEntityHeader: Hosted
X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BLUPR0601MB1554
X-Microsoft-Exchange-Diagnostics: 1; BLUPR0601MB1524; 2:YFxTHyVGFY0+63w8N5O8TBT0sI8jrm5UFojnk0M2NdOP0HX7mHTBMZY2pD8EfS1O; 3:gN3qRkpoQmjrSR5UvjbVWTISClOcq+yGq6S9yNJHo+gk7Vnfi92v/MI7BhXqQN9DoXBGUcFqGdLwR/cnabZjtmO5fmBMR3F5nHiupxCIESid4JElUyfSiXNrZz9IkHIUHLHKLb3IxOkPIgS0jWu3SA==; 25:VD0yIi7WjFYOz8q0GhViVrRERoEEUXz5WK61JP9FbpLGjthhCv/d8UEOKouk7NxZ2Lt7mWPncg05G4Ewzcu20sOoCsJcXMyapTkDzkiuCs/7WY5gt24UfKKUgT4oSUAKVSzCx6eE1GOIHrWeFAG6njrBg/6cM/ONmnpDXUwHQpRHCvE3TCYiX+vhFAYusUAjYPxlQyEQHBdpT9nIGvuYHRsCExq8lYd/1nmU3snvLCYkNkEr9dRBQxuqiBYiK0yx; 20:R0CAmcWTqc00Il/3+RDAb06BseNRp8Z0vGBNKQYP+vbF7cSFf0vrOPuFGbA+Y00aJZ2fu5SROWKDQA7Dd+Ev1A==; 23:zElg2nQQ2oZDajeemsSvXZLqg4zb97cMHgQgx39G4Kn1o0I/wwDi/epD4+Tsdh0aQ8XdGZkFz9h9AYRqoX/T/DhO8y0k1uNuDDVRoWx9maRG0aH3ZtpxHCYnmGyrMm5u2Yyo/37JRWzoR9lubRxi0gI5BvXc54qjIFpNtAAWV5fBm94vFbeaXx7ZwYFTuN0uduCMGQvulW9v31IrZfO0vVxitYuZNHqvTV41U17aDEJfaxrm91lgrzBl67HAvqAh
BLUPR0601MB1524: X-MS-Exchange-Organization-RulesExecuted
X-OriginatorOrg: isoc.org
Archived-At: <http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/93attendees/8Ph_pz0O3gSE02A39r20wwWgio0>
Cc: Joel M Snyder <Joel.Snyder@Opus1.COM>, Dave Crocker <dcrocker@bbiw.net>, 93attendees@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [93attendees] Network experiment during the meeting
X-BeenThere: 93attendees@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15
Precedence: list
List-Id: "Mailing list of IETF 93 attendees that have opted in on this list. " <93attendees.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/93attendees>, <mailto:93attendees-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/93attendees/>
List-Post: <mailto:93attendees@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:93attendees-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/93attendees>, <mailto:93attendees-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2015 17:18:15 -0000

Rolf, and all,

We will inquire as to Czech and EU.

Ray
IAD

> On Jul 14, 2015, at 10:27 AM, Rolf Winter <rolf.winter@hs-augsburg.de> wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> I am not a lawyer so anything I say is solely based on common sense, which probably means that legally speaking I am wrong. Just for the folks that have not read the description of our experiment, we solely talk about broadcast data. 
> 
> I have actually talked to our lawyer here, and her spontaneous suggestion was to ask whether one of the participants/sponsors from the Czech Republic could ask their lawyers/data protection officers if such an experiment would be OK under Czech Republic law? I found that a smashing idea. Anybody on this list who could help out? 
> 
> Best,
> 
> Rolf
> 
> Am 7/14/15 um 4:09 PM schrieb Joel M Snyder:
>> 
>> 
>> On 7/14/15 3:51 PM, Dave Crocker wrote: 
>> 
>>> You are doing an experiment.  It involves human subjects, since humans 
>>> are generating the traffic you will be monitoring.  You are not 
>>> obtaining their explicit permission. 
>> 
>> This would not be considered human subject experimentation.  Simply because humans are involved in an activity does not make it human subject experimentation. 
>> 
>> You have to be actually interacting (or otherwise affecting) the human subject.  Gathering data passively is not considered human subject experimentation, unless the data are PPI. 
>> 
>> You *could* argue that the data being collected could possibly be private data, since a naive Wi-Fi user might have some expectation that their Wi-Fi data were not being watched, and thus the information would be private.  This was used as an argument to condemn Google for capturing Wi-Fi data as they drove around. 
>> 
>> However, you could also argue that at a conference, in a hotel, there is no expectation of privacy of the Wi-Fi data.  And you could argue doubly (or triply) so that IETF users as a community are not so naive as to expect their Wi-Fi data to be private. 
>> 
>> jms 
>> (PhD, veteran of human subjects committee wars...) 
>> 
>> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 93attendees mailing list
> 93attendees@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/93attendees

v2.23.0 | Report a Bug | By Email