Re: [Ace] Charter discussion

"Brockhaus, Hendrik" <hendrik.brockhaus@siemens.com> Tue, 08 December 2020 07:20 UTC

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From: "Brockhaus, Hendrik" <hendrik.brockhaus@siemens.com>
To: Daniel Migault <mglt.ietf@gmail.com>
CC: Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu>, Ace Wg <ace@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Ace] Charter discussion
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Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2020 07:19:57 +0000
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ace/fRLp2SfZvoiJBPJPIt6s0LS4Oeo>
Subject: Re: [Ace] Charter discussion
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Thank you Daniel for the clarification.
Hendrik

Von: Daniel Migault <mglt.ietf@gmail.com>
Gesendet: Montag, 7. Dezember 2020 19:11
An: Brockhaus, Hendrik (T RDA CST SEA-DE) <hendrik.brockhaus@siemens.com>
Cc: Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu>du>; Ace Wg <ace@ietf.org>
Betreff: Re: [Ace] Charter discussion

Thanks, I was about just sending them a note, but that is maybe not needed. Just for your information, the note is not part of the charter, but to our AD/IESG.
Yours, Daniel

On Mon, Dec 7, 2020 at 12:05 PM Brockhaus, Hendrik <hendrik.brockhaus@siemens.com<mailto:hendrik.brockhaus@siemens.com>> wrote:
As the CMPoverCoAP draft was already discussed in LAMPS and Jim suggested to consider it in ACE, I suggest to drop the Note and come back to a clear statement as discussed at IETF109.

Discussion on the LAMPS Mailing List from June:
https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spasm/uyYCf5sMcxg6xoQFcbe1sPxqVLw/<https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fmailarchive.ietf.org%2Farch%2Fmsg%2Fspasm%2FuyYCf5sMcxg6xoQFcbe1sPxqVLw%2F&data=04%7C01%7Chendrik.brockhaus%40siemens.com%7Cfc495857bcd74afc5da208d89adb7e7f%7C38ae3bcd95794fd4addab42e1495d55a%7C1%7C0%7C637429614792205488%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=zcSaCtffDHtwVe0C3OZbscFHCktbOip6dKl90YPFMFU%3D&reserved=0>

Hendrik

Von: Ace <ace-bounces@ietf.org<mailto:ace-bounces@ietf.org>> Im Auftrag von Daniel Migault
Gesendet: Montag, 7. Dezember 2020 14:43
An: Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu<mailto:kaduk@mit.edu>>
Cc: Ace Wg <ace@ietf.org<mailto:ace@ietf.org>>
Betreff: Re: [Ace] Charter discussion

Hi,

Please have a look at the latest version of the charter before we move it forward by the end of the week - December 11.

I added a note on potential WG that could host the CMPv2 over CoAP - eventually. I am wondering if we should put a note to these WGs.

Yours,
Daniel


The Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments (ace) WG has defined a standardized solution framework for authentication and authorization to enable authorized access to resources identified by a URI and hosted on a resource server in constrained environments.

The access to the resource is mediated by an authorization server, which is not considered to be constrained.


Profiles of this framework for application to security protocols commonly used in constrained environments, including CoAP+DTLS and CoAP+OSCORE, have also been standardized.  The Working Group is charged with maintenance of the framework and existing profiles thereof, and may undertake work to specify profiles of the framework for additional secure communications protocols and for additional support services providing authorized access to crypto keys (that are not necessarily limited to constrained endpoints, though the focus remains on deployment in ecosystems with a substantial portion of constrained devices).


In addition to the ongoing maintenance work, the Working Group will extend the framework as needed for applicability to group communications, with initial focus on (D)TLS and (Group) OSCORE as the underlying group communication security protocols. The Working Group will standardize procedures for requesting and distributing group keying material using the ACE framework as well as appropriated management interfaces.


The Working Group will standardize a format for expressing authorization information for a given authenticated principal as received from an authorization manager.


The Working Group will examine how to use Constrained Application Protocol (CoAP) as a transport medium for certificate enrollment protocols, such as EST and CMPv2, as well as a transport for authentication protocols such as EAP, and standardize as needed. [Note that CMPv2 work may also be hosted in LAMPS (which revisits CMPv2), ANIMA ( which defines CMPv2 as an alternative to EST) or IOTPS. EAP work has been coordinated with EMU. In any case, if the work is being considered in ACE, we will make sure the corresponding WG will follow the progress.]






On Tue, Nov 17, 2020 at 6:47 PM Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu<mailto:kaduk@mit.edu>> wrote:
Thanks for updating the draft charter at [1], Daniel!

I note that Michael raised the question of whether some other group might
also be interested in working on CMP-over-coap, so the IESG will be sure to
discuss that if CMP is still in the draft ACE charter when it goes to the
IESG for review.

-Ben

On Tue, Nov 17, 2020 at 06:16:48PM -0500, Daniel Migault wrote:
> Thank you all for the feed backs. For the purpose of driving the charter
> discussion at the IETf 109, I have added the comments into the proposed
> text [1].
>
> My current understanding is that it seems beneficial to add CMPv2 over CoAP
> in the charter. I am happy to be contradicted.
> * I have not seen a clear cut to do one or the other.
> * EST and CMPv2 are two protocols that can be used for enrollment or cert
> management while addressing different cases / needs / situations -- maybe
> we can clarify that point. I can see leveraging the existing CMP
> infrastructure, but it seems that is not the only one.
> * I am not convinced that not having CMP over CoAP will not prevent its
> deployment and as such I prefer to have it standardized - this might be a
> personal thought.
> * Adding any piece of work require cycles, but it seems to me that CPM will
> not have a major impact on the WG progress. The work will probably include
> other WG such a LAMPS.
>
> Yours,
> Daniel
>
> [1]
> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1RtxUSvUeBdZWoQkjSj2c3DtR8DuBwPM2BnBXhoDiptY/edit?usp=sharing<https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fdocs.google.com%2Fdocument%2Fd%2F1RtxUSvUeBdZWoQkjSj2c3DtR8DuBwPM2BnBXhoDiptY%2Fedit%3Fusp%3Dsharing&data=04%7C01%7Chendrik.brockhaus%40siemens.com%7Cfc495857bcd74afc5da208d89adb7e7f%7C38ae3bcd95794fd4addab42e1495d55a%7C1%7C0%7C637429614792215481%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=sRetIaCRUI24Ui8Bv78AD9eaEFCB%2BNC5pMGDpEVLnOg%3D&reserved=0>
>
> On Tue, Nov 17, 2020 at 6:02 PM Daniel Migault <mglt.ietf@gmail.com<mailto:mglt.ietf@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> > Hi Goran,
> >
> > I added the text to the charter we will discuss later.
> >
> > Yours,
> > Daniel
> >
> > On Fri, Nov 13, 2020 at 10:26 AM Göran Selander <
> > goran.selander@ericsson.com<mailto:goran.selander@ericsson.com>> wrote:
> >
> >> Hi Daniel,
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Here’s another input to the charter.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> The current group key management solutions addresses the problem of
> >> authorized access to group keys and public keys of group members.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> A related problem is authorized access of public keys of other devices
> >> not necessarily part of a security group, in the sense of sharing a
> >> symmetric key used to protect group messages.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Authorized access to raw public keys serves an important function in
> >> constrained settings where public key certificates may not be feasible due
> >> to the incurred overhead, e.g. for when authenticating using EDHOC
> >> (draft-ietf-lake-edhoc).
> >>
> >> This functionality is thus a subset of what is already supported, but
> >> since the current solution is geared towards groups a different solution
> >> may be needed (although it is probably possible to reuse parts from the
> >> existing schemes for provisioning and requesting public keys).
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> With this in mind, I propose the following change (highlighted in
> >> boldface below):
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> OLD
> >>
> >> The Working Group is charged with maintenance of the framework and
> >> existing profiles thereof, and may undertake work to specify profiles of
> >> the framework for additional secure communications protocols (that are not
> >> necessarily limited to constrained endpoints, though the focus remains on
> >> deployment ecosystems with a substantial portion of constrained devices).
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> NEW
> >>
> >> The Working Group is charged with maintenance of the framework and
> >> existing profiles thereof, and may undertake work to specify profiles of
> >> the framework for additional secure communications protocols *and **for
> >> additional **support services **providing* *authorized access to crypto* *keys
> >> *(that are not necessarily limited to constrained endpoints, though the
> >> focus remains on deployment ecosystems with a substantial portion of
> >> constrained devices).
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Göran
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On 2020-10-15, 19:50, "Ace" <ace-bounces@ietf.org<mailto:ace-bounces@ietf.org>> wrote:
> >>
> >> Hi,
> >>
> >> I would like to start the charter discussion. Here is a draft of a
> >> proposed charter [1].
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> It seems to be that additional discussion is needed with regard to the
> >> last paragraph related certificate management. In particular the discussion
> >> might revive a discussion that happened in 2017 [2] - when I was not
> >> co-chair of ACE -and considered other expired work such as [3]. Please make
> >> this discussion constructive on this thread.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> The fundamental question is whether we need certificate management at
> >> this stage. If the answer is yes, and we have multiple proposals, it would
> >> be good to clarify the position of the different proposals and evaluate
> >> whether a selection is needed or not before validating the charter.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Please provide your inputs on the mailing list before October 30. Of
> >> course for minor edits, you may suggest them directly on the google doc.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Yours,
> >>
> >> Daniel
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> [1]
> >> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1RtxUSvUeBdZWoQkjSj2c3DtR8DuBwPM2BnBXhoDiptY/edit?usp=sharing<https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fdocs.google.com%2Fdocument%2Fd%2F1RtxUSvUeBdZWoQkjSj2c3DtR8DuBwPM2BnBXhoDiptY%2Fedit%3Fusp%3Dsharing&data=04%7C01%7Chendrik.brockhaus%40siemens.com%7Cfc495857bcd74afc5da208d89adb7e7f%7C38ae3bcd95794fd4addab42e1495d55a%7C1%7C0%7C637429614792225474%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=%2BkhrBVsN0pXtuqcvXWjBjpDJYTe6f7JcMI%2FcO3z6fOg%3D&reserved=0>
> >> <
> >> https://protect2.fireeye.com/v1/url?k=4f3d9c3b-118c475b-4f3ddca0-86e2237f51fb-627e48b069462d70&q=1&e=6924b2a6-e7e5-4ec1-a1af-c94637953dc5&u=https%3A%2F%2Fdocs.google.com%2Fdocument%2Fd%2F1RtxUSvUeBdZWoQkjSj2c3DtR8DuBwPM2BnBXhoDiptY%2Fedit%3Fusp%3Dsharing<https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fprotect2.fireeye.com%2Fv1%2Furl%3Fk%3D4f3d9c3b-118c475b-4f3ddca0-86e2237f51fb-627e48b069462d70%26q%3D1%26e%3D6924b2a6-e7e5-4ec1-a1af-c94637953dc5%26u%3Dhttps%253A%252F%252Fdocs.google.com%252Fdocument%252Fd%252F1RtxUSvUeBdZWoQkjSj2c3DtR8DuBwPM2BnBXhoDiptY%252Fedit%253Fusp%253Dsharing&data=04%7C01%7Chendrik.brockhaus%40siemens.com%7Cfc495857bcd74afc5da208d89adb7e7f%7C38ae3bcd95794fd4addab42e1495d55a%7C1%7C0%7C637429614792225474%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=IrvfFYuKyUE9%2BhdoqnevuwJjg1V2qKN%2Bc2wKAMTy8is%3D&reserved=0>>
> >>
> >>
> >> [2]
> >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/minutes-interim-2017-ace-03-201710191300/<https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fdatatracker.ietf.org%2Fdoc%2Fminutes-interim-2017-ace-03-201710191300%2F&data=04%7C01%7Chendrik.brockhaus%40siemens.com%7Cfc495857bcd74afc5da208d89adb7e7f%7C38ae3bcd95794fd4addab42e1495d55a%7C1%7C0%7C637429614792235469%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=xFQxHuaeph8%2B%2BDp4PEDB5%2FIO0Bt2wD6rHRgrn%2FUCuYc%3D&reserved=0>
> >>
> >> [3] https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-selander-ace-eals/<https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fdatatracker.ietf.org%2Fdoc%2Fdraft-selander-ace-eals%2F&data=04%7C01%7Chendrik.brockhaus%40siemens.com%7Cfc495857bcd74afc5da208d89adb7e7f%7C38ae3bcd95794fd4addab42e1495d55a%7C1%7C0%7C637429614792235469%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=S7%2FjJiFcumiZ%2BfJwn046ApVxGnxo7%2BRpI6VjsaEYPHM%3D&reserved=0>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >>
> >> Daniel Migault
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Ericsson
> >>
> >
> >
> > --
> > Daniel Migault
> > Ericsson
> >
>
>
> --
> Daniel Migault
> Ericsson

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--
Daniel Migault
Ericsson


--
Daniel Migault
Ericsson