Re: [Ace] [Emu] [core] Proposed charter for ACE (EAP over CoAP?)
Dan Garcia <dan.garcia@um.es> Wed, 09 December 2020 09:12 UTC
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To: josh.howlett@gmail.com, 'Göran Selander' <goran.selander=40ericsson.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, 'Laurent Toutain' <Laurent.Toutain@telecom-bretagne.eu>, 'Daniel Migault' <daniel.migault=40ericsson.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
Cc: 'EMU WG' <emu@ietf.org>, core@ietf.org, ace@ietf.org
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From: Dan Garcia <dan.garcia@um.es>
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Date: Wed, 09 Dec 2020 10:12:22 +0100
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Subject: Re: [Ace] [Emu] [core] Proposed charter for ACE (EAP over CoAP?)
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Hi Josh, Thanks for the support. At first sight, I would say that, from the perspective of a very constrained devices and networks, it would be better to directly design an EAP lower-layer based on CoAP without introducing any intermediate layer. Best Regards, Dan. On 7/12/20 16:50, josh.howlett@gmail.com wrote: > > I support this; although I am curious in Dan’s opinion as to whether > GSS on top of CoAP is also worth considering, as a way of leveraging > the GSS EAP and other mechanisms (such as Kerberos). > > Josh > > *From:*Emu <emu-bounces@ietf.org> *On Behalf Of *Göran Selander > *Sent:* 07 December 2020 14:08 > *To:* Laurent Toutain <Laurent.Toutain@telecom-bretagne.eu>; Daniel > Migault <daniel.migault=40ericsson.com@dmarc.ietf.org> > *Cc:* EMU WG <emu@ietf.org>; core@ietf.org WG (core@ietf.org) > <core@ietf.org>; ace@ietf.org > *Subject:* Re: [Emu] [core] [Ace] Proposed charter for ACE (EAP over > CoAP?) > > +1. > > (The recently updated ACE charter should cover this work.) > > Göran > > On 2020-12-03, 20:03, "core" <core-bounces@ietf.org > <mailto:core-bounces@ietf.org>> wrote: > > Hi, > > I think it is important to have EAP on top of CoAP, as Dan said it fit > well with the last charter item. > > Laurent > > On Thu, Dec 3, 2020 at 2:20 PM Daniel Migault > <daniel.migault=40ericsson.com@dmarc.ietf.org > <mailto:daniel.migault=40ericsson.com@dmarc.ietf.org>> wrote: > > CCing emu, core > > It seems ACE to me that ACE could be home for such a document. I am > wondering if emu core or any other WG believe there is a better place > for it. > > Regarding ACE I am wondering what is the WG opinion about adding this > item to the ACE charter. > > Yours, > > Daniel > > ________________________________________ > > From: Ace <ace-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:ace-bounces@ietf.org>> on > behalf of Dan Garcia <dan.garcia@um.es <mailto:dan.garcia@um.es>> > > Sent: Thursday, December 3, 2020 6:10 AM > > To: ace@ietf.org <mailto:ace@ietf.org> <ace@ietf.org > <mailto:ace@ietf.org>> > > Subject: [Ace] Proposed charter for ACE (EAP over CoAP?) > > Dear all: > > Regarding the new charter, since ACE is considering the definition of > CoAP transport for CMPv2 > (https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-msahni-ace-cmpv2-coap-transport-00 > <https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-msahni-ace-cmpv2-coap-transport-00>), > we were wondering whethere it could also consider specifying EAP > (Extensible Authentication Protocol) over CoAP. > > In this sense, we proposed this some time ago and we have > implementations about this. > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-marin-ace-wg-coap-eap-06 > <https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-marin-ace-wg-coap-eap-06> > > https://www.mdpi.com/1424-8220/16/3/358 > <https://www.mdpi.com/1424-8220/16/3/358> > > https://www.mdpi.com/1424-8220/17/11/2646 > <https://www.mdpi.com/1424-8220/17/11/2646> > > The usage of CoAP can provide a very light and link-layer independent > (we even tested in LoRa networks) EAP lower-layer (transport for EAP) > suitable for IoT enviroment. We believe this would be really useful > since EAP provides flexibility for the authentication and it is a > well-known protocol. > > Therefore, we would like to propose the following modification to the > charter: > > "The Working Group will examine how to use Constrained Application > Protocol (CoAP) as a transport medium for certificate enrollment > protocols, such as EST and CMPv2, as well as a transport for > authentication protocols such as EAP, and standardize them as needed." > > This modification does not necessarily mean the adoption of our draft. > After all, we completely understand that this would happen only if > there is an interest in the WG. Nevertheless, we would like to avoid > that the charter is a barrier later if there is interest in the WG to > work in this transport of EAP over CoAP: > > Any opinion about this? > > Best Regards. > > El 18/11/2020 a las 8:08, Daniel Migault escribió: > > Hi, > > Please find the proposed charter we agreed on during the interim > meeting. If you would like to propose any change, please use the > following URL by November 25: > > https://docs.google.com/document/d/1RtxUSvUeBdZWoQkjSj2c3DtR8DuBwPM2BnBXhoDiptY/edit?usp=sharing > <https://docs.google.com/document/d/1RtxUSvUeBdZWoQkjSj2c3DtR8DuBwPM2BnBXhoDiptY/edit?usp=sharing> > <https://protect2.fireeye.com/v1/url?k=f9dc6551-a6475d83-f9dc25ca-866132fe445e-9c25a5c257a23470&q=1&e=03ce3af5-6990-40e0-b2b5-255ac5f5dfe0&u=https%3A%2F%2Fdocs.google.com%2Fdocument%2Fd%2F1RtxUSvUeBdZWoQkjSj2c3DtR8DuBwPM2BnBXhoDiptY%2Fedit%3Fusp%3Dsharing > <https://protect2.fireeye.com/v1/url?k=f9dc6551-a6475d83-f9dc25ca-866132fe445e-9c25a5c257a23470&q=1&e=03ce3af5-6990-40e0-b2b5-255ac5f5dfe0&u=https%3A%2F%2Fdocs.google.com%2Fdocument%2Fd%2F1RtxUSvUeBdZWoQkjSj2c3DtR8DuBwPM2BnBXhoDiptY%2Fedit%3Fusp%3Dsharing>> > > Yours, > > Daniel > > The Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments > (ace) WG has defined a standardized solution framework for > authentication and authorization to enable authorized access to > resources identified by a URI and hosted on a resource server in > constrained environments. > > The access to the resource is mediated by an authorization server, > which is not considered to be constrained. > > Profiles of this framework for application to security protocols > commonly used in constrained environments, including CoAP+DTLS and > CoAP+OSCORE, have also been standardized. The Working Group is > charged with maintenance of the framework and existing profiles > thereof, and may undertake work to specify profiles of the framework > for additional secure communications protocols and for additional > support services providing authorized access to crypto keys (that are > not necessarily limited to constrained endpoints, though the focus > remains on deployment in ecosystems with a substantial portion of > constrained devices). > > In addition to the ongoing maintenance work, the Working Group will > extend the framework as needed for applicability to group > communications, with initial focus on (D)TLS and (Group) OSCORE as the > underlying group communication security protocols. The Working Group > will standardize procedures for requesting and distributing group > keying material using the ACE framework as well as appropriated > management interfaces. > > The Working Group will standardize a format for expressing > authorization information for a given authenticated principal as > received from an authorization manager. > > The Working Group will examine how to use Constrained Application > Protocol (CoAP) as a transport medium for certificate enrollment > protocols, such as EST and CMPv2, and standardize as needed. > > On Tue, Nov 17, 2020 at 6:47 PM Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu > <mailto:kaduk@mit.edu>> wrote: > > Thanks for updating the draft charter at [1], Daniel! > > I note that Michael raised the question of whether some other group might > > also be interested in working on CMP-over-coap, so the IESG will be > sure to > > discuss that if CMP is still in the draft ACE charter when it goes to the > > IESG for review. > > -Ben > > On Tue, Nov 17, 2020 at 06:16:48PM -0500, Daniel Migault wrote: > > > Thank you all for the feed backs. For the purpose of driving the charter > > > discussion at the IETf 109, I have added the comments into the proposed > > > text [1]. > > > > > > My current understanding is that it seems beneficial to add CMPv2 > over CoAP > > > in the charter. I am happy to be contradicted. > > > * I have not seen a clear cut to do one or the other. > > > * EST and CMPv2 are two protocols that can be used for enrollment or > cert > > > management while addressing different cases / needs / situations -- > maybe > > > we can clarify that point. I can see leveraging the existing CMP > > > infrastructure, but it seems that is not the only one. > > > * I am not convinced that not having CMP over CoAP will not prevent its > > > deployment and as such I prefer to have it standardized - this might > be a > > > personal thought. > > > * Adding any piece of work require cycles, but it seems to me that > CPM will > > > not have a major impact on the WG progress. The work will probably > include > > > other WG such a LAMPS. > > > > > > Yours, > > > Daniel > > > > > > [1] > > > > https://docs.google.com/document/d/1RtxUSvUeBdZWoQkjSj2c3DtR8DuBwPM2BnBXhoDiptY/edit?usp=sharing > <https://docs.google.com/document/d/1RtxUSvUeBdZWoQkjSj2c3DtR8DuBwPM2BnBXhoDiptY/edit?usp=sharing> > <https://protect2.fireeye.com/v1/url?k=a01e017d-ff8539af-a01e41e6-866132fe445e-7268e18ca0e30ad7&q=1&e=03ce3af5-6990-40e0-b2b5-255ac5f5dfe0&u=https%3A%2F%2Fdocs.google.com%2Fdocument%2Fd%2F1RtxUSvUeBdZWoQkjSj2c3DtR8DuBwPM2BnBXhoDiptY%2Fedit%3Fusp%3Dsharing > <https://protect2.fireeye.com/v1/url?k=a01e017d-ff8539af-a01e41e6-866132fe445e-7268e18ca0e30ad7&q=1&e=03ce3af5-6990-40e0-b2b5-255ac5f5dfe0&u=https%3A%2F%2Fdocs.google.com%2Fdocument%2Fd%2F1RtxUSvUeBdZWoQkjSj2c3DtR8DuBwPM2BnBXhoDiptY%2Fedit%3Fusp%3Dsharing>> > > > > > > On Tue, Nov 17, 2020 at 6:02 PM Daniel Migault <mglt.ietf@gmail.com > <mailto:mglt.ietf@gmail.com>> wrote: > > > > > > > Hi Goran, > > > > > > > > I added the text to the charter we will discuss later. > > > > > > > > Yours, > > > > Daniel > > > > > > > > On Fri, Nov 13, 2020 at 10:26 AM Göran Selander < > > > > goran.selander@ericsson.com <mailto:goran.selander@ericsson.com>> > wrote: > > > > > > > >> Hi Daniel, > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> Here’s another input to the charter. > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> The current group key management solutions addresses the problem of > > > >> authorized access to group keys and public keys of group members. > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> A related problem is authorized access of public keys of other > devices > > > >> not necessarily part of a security group, in the sense of sharing a > > > >> symmetric key used to protect group messages. > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> Authorized access to raw public keys serves an important function in > > > >> constrained settings where public key certificates may not be > feasible due > > > >> to the incurred overhead, e.g. for when authenticating using EDHOC > > > >> (draft-ietf-lake-edhoc). > > > >> > > > >> This functionality is thus a subset of what is already supported, but > > > >> since the current solution is geared towards groups a different > solution > > > >> may be needed (although it is probably possible to reuse parts > from the > > > >> existing schemes for provisioning and requesting public keys). > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> With this in mind, I propose the following change (highlighted in > > > >> boldface below): > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> OLD > > > >> > > > >> The Working Group is charged with maintenance of the framework and > > > >> existing profiles thereof, and may undertake work to specify > profiles of > > > >> the framework for additional secure communications protocols > (that are not > > > >> necessarily limited to constrained endpoints, though the focus > remains on > > > >> deployment ecosystems with a substantial portion of constrained > devices). > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> NEW > > > >> > > > >> The Working Group is charged with maintenance of the framework and > > > >> existing profiles thereof, and may undertake work to specify > profiles of > > > >> the framework for additional secure communications protocols *and > **for > > > >> additional **support services **providing* *authorized access to > crypto* *keys > > > >> *(that are not necessarily limited to constrained endpoints, > though the > > > >> focus remains on deployment ecosystems with a substantial portion of > > > >> constrained devices). > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> Göran > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> On 2020-10-15, 19:50, "Ace" <ace-bounces@ietf.org > <mailto:ace-bounces@ietf.org>> wrote: > > > >> > > > >> Hi, > > > >> > > > >> I would like to start the charter discussion. Here is a draft of a > > > >> proposed charter [1]. > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> It seems to be that additional discussion is needed with regard > to the > > > >> last paragraph related certificate management. In particular the > discussion > > > >> might revive a discussion that happened in 2017 [2] - when I was not > > > >> co-chair of ACE -and considered other expired work such as [3]. > Please make > > > >> this discussion constructive on this thread. > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> The fundamental question is whether we need certificate management at > > > >> this stage. If the answer is yes, and we have multiple proposals, > it would > > > >> be good to clarify the position of the different proposals and > evaluate > > > >> whether a selection is needed or not before validating the charter. > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> Please provide your inputs on the mailing list before October 30. Of > > > >> course for minor edits, you may suggest them directly on the > google doc. > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> Yours, > > > >> > > > >> Daniel > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> [1] > > > >> > https://docs.google.com/document/d/1RtxUSvUeBdZWoQkjSj2c3DtR8DuBwPM2BnBXhoDiptY/edit?usp=sharing > <https://docs.google.com/document/d/1RtxUSvUeBdZWoQkjSj2c3DtR8DuBwPM2BnBXhoDiptY/edit?usp=sharing> > <https://protect2.fireeye.com/v1/url?k=2eaaeb96-7131d344-2eaaab0d-866132fe445e-7e515f25c81762b8&q=1&e=03ce3af5-6990-40e0-b2b5-255ac5f5dfe0&u=https%3A%2F%2Fdocs.google.com%2Fdocument%2Fd%2F1RtxUSvUeBdZWoQkjSj2c3DtR8DuBwPM2BnBXhoDiptY%2Fedit%3Fusp%3Dsharing > <https://protect2.fireeye.com/v1/url?k=2eaaeb96-7131d344-2eaaab0d-866132fe445e-7e515f25c81762b8&q=1&e=03ce3af5-6990-40e0-b2b5-255ac5f5dfe0&u=https%3A%2F%2Fdocs.google.com%2Fdocument%2Fd%2F1RtxUSvUeBdZWoQkjSj2c3DtR8DuBwPM2BnBXhoDiptY%2Fedit%3Fusp%3Dsharing>> > > > >> < > > > >> > https://protect2.fireeye.com/v1/url?k=4f3d9c3b-118c475b-4f3ddca0-86e2237f51fb-627e48b069462d70&q=1&e=6924b2a6-e7e5-4ec1-a1af-c94637953dc5&u=https%3A%2F%2Fdocs.google.com%2Fdocument%2Fd%2F1RtxUSvUeBdZWoQkjSj2c3DtR8DuBwPM2BnBXhoDiptY%2Fedit%3Fusp%3Dsharing > <https://protect2.fireeye.com/v1/url?k=4f3d9c3b-118c475b-4f3ddca0-86e2237f51fb-627e48b069462d70&q=1&e=6924b2a6-e7e5-4ec1-a1af-c94637953dc5&u=https%3A%2F%2Fdocs.google.com%2Fdocument%2Fd%2F1RtxUSvUeBdZWoQkjSj2c3DtR8DuBwPM2BnBXhoDiptY%2Fedit%3Fusp%3Dsharing>> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> [2] > > > >> > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/minutes-interim-2017-ace-03-201710191300/ > <https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/minutes-interim-2017-ace-03-201710191300/> > > > >> > > > >> [3] https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-selander-ace-eals/ > <https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-selander-ace-eals/> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> -- > > > >> > > > >> Daniel Migault > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> Ericsson > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Daniel Migault > > > > Ericsson > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Daniel Migault > > > Ericsson > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Ace mailing list > > > Ace@ietf.org <mailto:Ace@ietf.org> > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace > <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace> > > _______________________________________________ > > Ace mailing list > > Ace@ietf.org <mailto:Ace@ietf.org> > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace > <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace> > > -- > > Daniel Migault > > Ericsson > > _______________________________________________ > > Ace mailing list > > Ace@ietf.orghttps > <mailto:Ace@ietf.orghttps>://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace > > _______________________________________________ > > core mailing list > > core@ietf.org <mailto:core@ietf.org> > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/core > <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/core> > > -- > > Laurent Toutain > > +--- VoIP (recommended) ---+----------- Télécom Bretagne -----------+ > > | Tel: +33 2 22 06 8156 | Tel: + 33 2 99 12 7026 | > Visit :| Mob: +33 6 800 75 > 900 | | > > | Fax: +33 2 22 06 8445 | Fax: +33 2 99 12 7030 | > http://class.touta.in <http://class.touta.in> > <https://protect2.fireeye.com/v1/url?k=a3f58437-fc325694-a3f5c4ac-86f373f27850-0daaf502d59f9de3&q=1&e=4c9aeb6f-f5eb-4229-b6fb-e4c6abb28354&u=http%3A%2F%2Fclass.touta.in%2F > <https://protect2.fireeye.com/v1/url?k=a3f58437-fc325694-a3f5c4ac-86f373f27850-0daaf502d59f9de3&q=1&e=4c9aeb6f-f5eb-4229-b6fb-e4c6abb28354&u=http%3A%2F%2Fclass.touta.in%2F>> > > | Laurent@Touta.in <mailto:Laurent@Touta.in> | > Laurent.Toutain@Telecom-Bretagne.eu > <mailto:Laurent.Toutain@Telecom-Bretagne.eu> | > > +--------------------------+----------------------------------------+ > > > _______________________________________________ > Emu mailing list > Emu@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/emu
- [Ace] Charter discussion Daniel Migault
- Re: [Ace] Charter discussion Göran Selander
- Re: [Ace] Charter discussion Michael Richardson
- Re: [Ace] Charter discussion Göran Selander
- Re: [Ace] Charter discussion Panos Kampanakis (pkampana)
- Re: [Ace] Charter discussion Brockhaus, Hendrik
- Re: [Ace] Charter discussion Daniel Migault
- Re: [Ace] Charter discussion Göran Selander
- Re: [Ace] Charter discussion Daniel Migault
- Re: [Ace] Charter discussion Daniel Migault
- Re: [Ace] Charter discussion Daniel Migault
- Re: [Ace] Charter discussion Benjamin Kaduk
- [Ace] Proposed charter for ACE Daniel Migault
- [Ace] Proposed charter for ACE (EAP over CoAP?) Dan Garcia
- Re: [Ace] Proposed charter for ACE (EAP over CoAP… Daniel Migault
- Re: [Ace] [core] Proposed charter for ACE (EAP ov… Laurent Toutain
- Re: [Ace] [Emu] Proposed charter for ACE (EAP ove… Mohit Sethi M
- Re: [Ace] Charter discussion Daniel Migault
- Re: [Ace] [core] Proposed charter for ACE (EAP ov… Göran Selander
- Re: [Ace] Charter discussion Olaf Bergmann
- Re: [Ace] Charter discussion Daniel Migault
- Re: [Ace] Charter discussion Brockhaus, Hendrik
- Re: [Ace] Charter discussion Daniel Migault
- Re: [Ace] [core] Proposed charter for ACE (EAP ov… Michael Richardson
- Re: [Ace] Charter discussion Brockhaus, Hendrik
- Re: [Ace] [Emu] [core] Proposed charter for ACE (… Dan Garcia
- Re: [Ace] [core] Proposed charter for ACE (EAP ov… Dan Garcia
- Re: [Ace] [core] Proposed charter for ACE (EAP ov… Alexander Pelov
- Re: [Ace] Proposed charter for ACE (EAP over CoAP… Christian Amsüss
- Re: [Ace] [core] Proposed charter for ACE (EAP ov… Carsten Bormann
- Re: [Ace] [core] Proposed charter for ACE (EAP ov… Michael Richardson
- Re: [Ace] [core] Proposed charter for ACE (EAP ov… Dan Garcia
- Re: [Ace] Proposed charter for ACE (EAP over CoAP… Georgios PAPADOPOULOS
- Re: [Ace] [core] Proposed charter for ACE (EAP ov… Mališa Vučinić
- Re: [Ace] [core] Proposed charter for ACE (EAP ov… Dan Garcia Carrillo
- Re: [Ace] [core] Proposed charter for ACE (EAP ov… Mališa Vučinić
- Re: [Ace] [core] Proposed charter for ACE (EAP ov… Dan Garcia Carrillo
- Re: [Ace] [core] Proposed charter for ACE (EAP ov… Benjamin Kaduk
- Re: [Ace] [core] Proposed charter for ACE (EAP ov… Dan Garcia