Re: [Ace] [OAUTH-WG] Shepherd write-up for draft-ietf-oauth-resource-indicators-01

Brian Campbell <bcampbell@pingidentity.com> Mon, 28 January 2019 20:54 UTC

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From: Brian Campbell <bcampbell@pingidentity.com>
Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2019 13:54:16 -0700
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To: Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>, ace@ietf.org
Cc: "George Fletcher at aol.com" <gffletch@aol.com>, "oauth@ietf.org" <oauth@ietf.org>, Vittorio Bertocci <vittorio.bertocci@auth0.com>
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Subject: Re: [Ace] [OAUTH-WG] Shepherd write-up for draft-ietf-oauth-resource-indicators-01
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[added ace@ietf.org kinda per suggestion from Mike]

I don't know that there are concerns about “req_aud” per se.  Admittedly, I
did use the word "concerns" but I was more trying to say that referencing
it from the draft-ietf-oauth-resource-indicators document wasn't needed to
address Vittorio's request. And pointing out that “req_aud”  is defined for
the token endpoint while the draft-ietf-oauth-resource-indicators document
also deals with the authorization endpoint so such a reference wouldn't
really work anyway.

I don't know of anyone that just works from the OAuth parameter
registration but maybe I'm just out of touch. And I don't think its a
stretch at all to observe that ACE OAuth and OAuth 2 are different.



On Mon, Jan 28, 2019 at 11:28 AM Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
wrote:

> Brian, etc.  If you have concerns about “req_aud”, now’s the time to
> provide that feedback to the ACE WG, as they’re trying to complete that
> draft soon.  Please join the ACE WG mailing list and send your feedback
> there directly.
>
>
>
> You and I may know that ACE OAuth and OAuth 2 are pretty different but
> developers later will just see the OAuth parameter registration and won’t
> realize that it’s coming from a different universe.  If we can harmonize
> things now, we should.
>
>
>
>                                                           -- Mike
>
>
>
> *From:* OAuth <oauth-bounces@ietf.org> *On Behalf Of *George Fletcher
> *Sent:* Monday, January 28, 2019 10:05 AM
> *To:* Brian Campbell <bcampbell=40pingidentity.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
> *Cc:* oauth@ietf.org; Vittorio Bertocci <vittorio.bertocci@auth0.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [OAUTH-WG] Shepherd write-up for
> draft-ietf-oauth-resource-indicators-01
>
>
>
> +1
>
> I came to a similar conclusion over the weekend. If
> https://api.example.com/mail is an allowed location URI, how is it not
> also a logical location considering it's possible there are multiple
> endpoints "below" https://api.example.com/mail? (e.g.
> https://api.example.com/mail/user/mailbox). Also if https://api.example.com
> is really a load balancer that fronts the "
> <https://api.example.com/mail?(e.g.https://api.example.com/mail/user/mailbox).Alsoifhttps://api.example.comisreallyaloadbalancerthatfrontsthe>real"
> endpoints, then it's also "logical" in that context and not an exact
> location.
>
> This brings me to the conclusion that all the resource identifiers are
> "logical" along a range of specificity. How specific a resource is
> identified is really a risk decision and based on the deployment model can
> be managed at either the RS or the AS.
>
> Thanks,
> George
>
> On 1/28/19 9:07 AM, Brian Campbell wrote:
>
> I plan on joining the meeting today at noon eastern time to discuses this
> little ditty. I hope others who have a stake in it can too.
>
>
>
> The proposed changes that Vittorio and I put together can be seen in the
> diff of this pull request
> https://github.com/ietf-oauth-resource-indicators/i-d/pull/1/files and I
> even put a xml2rfc'ed text version on
> https://github.com/ietf-oauth-resource-indicators/i-d/pull/1 for ease of
> reference. I maintain that is the most straightforward way forward with all
> this. Yet another new additional parameter could be defined for the logical
> case but I struggle to see the value in doing so. The 'resource' is URI
> that points to the resource. The level of specificity of that pointer is
> intentionally a bit fuzzy and application/deployment specific. Is
> https://graph.microsoft.com (mentioned in the documentation previously
> linked) a location or an abstract identifier or both? The document already
> (somewhat awkwardly) describes using a "base URI" for the application or
> resource. Is that a a location or an abstract identifier? Or kinda both?
>
>
>
> In addition to the concerns others have expressed about "req_aud", I"d
> note that draft-ietf-ace-oauth-params defines its use only at the token
> endpoint as one of the "additional parameters for requesting an access
> token from a token endpoint in the ACE framework". Whereas the
> resource-indicators draft scope includes the authorization endpoint too.
> Furthermore, while the ACE WG is building on OAuth, for all intents and
> purposes ACE and regular OAuth are different worlds and I think a reference
> in regular OAuth document like this one to "Additional OAuth Parameters for
> Authorization in Constrained Environments (ACE)" would be a disservice to
> just about everyone.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Jan 24, 2019 at 5:13 PM Rifaat Shekh-Yusef <rifaat.ietf@gmail.com
> <rifaat.ietf@gmail..com>> wrote:
>
> Hannes sent an update to this meeting here:
>
> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/oauth/v8sUMEBGMC24AdWLewAymP-X4kU
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
>  Rifaat
>
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Jan 24, 2019 at 6:20 PM Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
> wrote:
>
> The virtual office hours in my calendar start 1/2 hour before that.  If
> the time has changed, can you have the meeting organizer update the
> calendar entry?
>
>
>
>                                                           Thanks,
>
>                                                           -- Mike
>
>
>
> *From:* Rifaat Shekh-Yusef <rifaat.ietf@gmail.com>
> *Sent:* Thursday, January 24, 2019 12:46 PM
> *To:* George Fletcher <gffletch@aol.com>
> *Cc:* Vittorio Bertocci <Vittorio@auth0.com>; Mike Jones <
> Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>; oauth@ietf.org
> *Subject:* Re: [OAUTH-WG] Shepherd write-up for
> draft-ietf-oauth-resource-indicators-01
>
>
>
> All,
>
>
>
> This coming Monday, Jan 28 @ 12:00pm Eastern Time, we have a scheduled
> OAuth WG Virtual Office meeting.
>
> Feel free to attend the meeting to discuss this topic to try to get to a
> conclusion on this.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
>  Rifaat
>
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Jan 23, 2019 at 3:00 PM George Fletcher <gffletch=
> 40aol.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
>
> +1
>
> Also, I don't really like the parameter name 'req_aud' :) I'm not 100%
> convinced that 'audience' and 'logical resource' are completely overlapping
> concepts. We can potentially make them completely overlapping but we need
> text to that effect.
>
> I also believe that we don't have a complete solution for all deployments
> using exact locations (see my previous email).
>
> Thanks,
> George
>
> On 1/23/19 2:50 PM, Vittorio Bertocci wrote:
>
> As mentioned below, I agree the two can be separated- but I also agree
> with George on the need to be clear an easy to reference for developers.
>
> Just adding a reference to req_aud would just raise the cyclomatic
> complexity of the specs, which is already unusably high for mere mortals in
> the OAuth2/OIDC family of specs.
>
>
>
> One additional complication is that this specification is reusing a
> parameter that is already used in a *very* large number of production
> systems (small example here
> <https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/azure/active-directory/develop/v1-protocols-oauth-code>),
> and whose concrete semantic happens to be prevalently logic identifier. If
> the parameter you are defining here has a different semantic, at the very
> least it would seem good hygiene to rename it to avoid collision and
> confusion.
>
>
>
> On Wed, Jan 23, 2019 at 11:03 AM Mike Jones <Michael.Jones=
> 40microsoft.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
>
> I agree with John’s logic.  The physical resource and logical resource
> should use different identifiers.  Fortunately, we already have “resource”
> and “req_aud” for these parameters.  I believe we’re good to go, as-is.
>
>
>
>                                                        -- Mike
>
>
>
> *From:* OAuth <oauth-bounces@ietf.org> *On Behalf Of *John Bradley
> *Sent:* Wednesday, January 23, 2019 10:56 AM
> *To:* oauth@ietf.org
> *Subject:* Re: [OAUTH-WG] Shepherd write-up for
> draft-ietf-oauth-resource-indicators-01
>
>
>
> I don't think they are necessarily mutually exclusive, that is why I think
> there is value in allowing them to be specified separately.
>
> As an AS in the distributed OAuth case knowing that a client interacting
> with RS https://fire.hhs.com as the resource wants a OAuth token with an
> audience of HHS and a scope of read.
>
> Without proof of possession we need to keep bad RS from asking for tokens
> with scopes and audiences of other RS that can be replayed.
>
> I really like keeping the resource simple and unspoofable, it is the URI
> of the RS where you are presenting the AT.
>
> I prefer to keep that separate from the logical resource that may span
> more than one RS endpoint.
>
> Merging the two and we are probably back at the AS looking into the URI to
> figure out which one it is.  I think that is harder for implementations and
> more likely to have security issues down the road.
>
> John B.
>
> On 1/23/2019 1:44 PM, Vittorio Bertocci wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>
> thanks for you patience. Brian and myself iterated on modifying the text
> to cover the logical identifier use case, highlighting the security
> implications of going that route. You can find the revised text in
> https://github.com/vibronet/i-d/blob/master/draft-ietf-oauth-resource-indicators.xml,
> see the commits in the history from January 21 for the specific changes.
>
> Note: I also had a chat with John offline, and he expressed the desire to
> split the resource parameter in two distinct parameters to better signal
> the intended usage. I am sure he can elaborate. I have nothing against it
> in principle, as long as we leave nothing as exercise to the reader and we
> are very clear on usage (e.g. mutual exclusivity, etc) but didn't have a
> chance to speak w Brian about it. If the discussion stretches further, I
> would suggest we pause it and let him enjoy his time off for the rest of
> the week.
>
>
>
> On Mon, Jan 21, 2019 at 5:35 PM Rifaat Shekh-Yusef <rifaat.ietf@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> Thank you guys!
>
>
>
> On Monday, January 21, 2019, Vittorio Bertocci <Vittorio@auth0.com> wrote:
>
> Hi Rifaat,
>
> absolutely. Brian and myself already started working on some language,
> however this week he is in vacation hence it might take few days before we
> come back to the list with something.
>
> Cheers,
>
> V.
>
>
>
> On Mon, Jan 21, 2019 at 9:35 AM Rifaat Shekh-Yusef <rifaat.ietf@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> Brian, Vittorio,
>
>
>
> To move this discussion forward, can you guys suggest some text to make
> the logical identifier usage clearer?
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
>  Rifaat
>
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Jan 21, 2019 at 10:32 AM Brian Campbell <bcampbell=
> 40pingidentity.com@dmarc.ietf..org <40pingidentity.com@dmarc.ietf.org>>
> wrote:
>
> As I suggested before, I do think that's within the bounds of the draft's
> definition of 'resource' as a URI. And that perhaps all that's needed is
> some minor adjustment and/or augmentation of some text to make it more
> clear.
>
>
>
> On Sun, Jan 20, 2019 at 7:39 PM Vittorio Bertocci <Vittorio@auth0.com>
> wrote:
>
> [sent to John only by mistake, resending to the ML]
>
>
>
> In Azure AD v1 & ADFS, that's resource.. It could be used for both
> network and logical ids, with the concrete usage in the wild I described
> earlier.
>
> In Azure AD v2, the resource as explicit parameter (network, logic or
> otherwise) is gone and is expressed as part of the scope string of all the
> scopes requested for a given resource- but it still exist in practice tho
> as it still end up in the resulting aud of the issued token.
>
> This is 9 months old info hence
>
>
>
> On Sun, Jan 20, 2019 at 17:58 John Bradley <ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com> wrote:
>
> What is the parameter that Microsoft is using?
>
> On 1/20/2019 3:59 PM, Vittorio Bertocci wrote:
>
> First of all, it wasn't my intent to disrupt the established process. In
> my former position I wasn't monitoring those discussions hence I didn't
> have a chance to offer feedback. When I saw something that gave me the
> impression might lead to issues, and given that I worked with actual
> deployments and developers using a similar parameter for a long time, I
> thought prudent to bring this up. I really appreciate Rifaat's stance on
> this. End of preamble.
>
>
>
> Ultimately my goal is for developers to have guidance on how to work with
> the concept of logical resource in a standard compliant way, hence it
> doesn't strictly matter whether the definition of the corresponding
> parameter lives in oauth-resource-indicators or elsewhere.
>
> That said. Reading through the draft, it would appear that most of the
> reasons for which the spec was created apply to both the network
> addressable and the logical resource types: knowing what keys to use to
> encrypt the token, constrain access tokens to the intended audience,
> avoiding overloading scopes with resource indicating parts... those all
> apply to network addressable and logic identifiers alike. And both
> parameters are expected to result in audience restricted tokens. It seems
> the only difference comes at token usage time, with the network addressable
> case giving more guarantees that the token will go to its intended
> recipient, but the request and audience restriction syntax seems to be
> exactly the same.
>
> On top of this: in the 99.999% of the scenarios I encountered in the wild
> in the last 5 years of using the resource parameter in the MS ecosystem,
> the resource identifier was known at design time: the developer discovered
> it out of band and placed it in the app config at deployment time. Those
> aren't fringe cases I occasionally encountered: the resource parameter in
> Azure AD v1 and ADFS was mandatory, hence literally every solution i saw or
> touched used it. As Brian suggested, this is a scenario where the security
> advantages of the network addressable case aren't as pronounced as in the
> case in which the client discovers the resource identifier at runtime. This
> isn't just because there is no specification suggesting location should be
> explicitly indicated, it's because there are many practical advantages at
> development and deployment time to be able to use logical identifiers- and
> if the *concrete *security advantages don't apply to the their case,
> people will simply not comply.
>
>
>
> In summary: creating two different parameters in two different documents
> is better than ignoring he logical identifier case altogether, however I
> think that not acknowledging the logical id case
> in oauth-resource-indicators is going to create confusion and ultimately
> not be as useful to the developer community as it could be.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sat, Jan 19, 2019 at 12:38 Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com> wrote:
>
> +1 to Mike and John’s comments.
>
> Phil
>
>
> On Jan 19, 2019, at 12:34 PM, Mike Jones <
> Michael.Jones=40microsoft.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
>
> I also agree that “resource” should be a specific network-addressable URL
> whereas a separate audience parameter (like “aud” in JWTs) can refer to one
> or more logical resources.  They are different, if related, things.
>
>
>
> Note that the ACE WG is proposing to register a logical audience parameter
> “req_aud” in https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ace-oauth-params-01 -
> partly based on feedback from OAuth WG members.  This is a general OAuth
> parameter, which any OAuth deployment will be able to use.
>
>
>
> I therefore believe that no changes are needed to
> draft-ietf-oauth-resource-indicators, as the logical audience work is
> already happening in another draft.
>
>
>
>                                                           -- Mike
>
>
>
> *From:* OAuth <oauth-bounces@ietf.org> *On Behalf Of *John Bradley
> *Sent:* Saturday, January 19, 2019 9:01 AM
> *To:* Brian Campbell <bcampbell@pingidentity.com>
> *Cc:* Vittorio Bertocci <Vittorio=40auth0.com@dmarc.ietf.org>; IETF oauth
> WG <oauth@ietf.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [OAUTH-WG] Shepherd write-up for
> draft-ietf-oauth-resource-indicators-01
>
>
>
> We need to decide if we want to make a change.
>
>
>
> For security we are location centric.
>
>
>
> I prefer to keep resource location separate from logical audience that can
> be a scope or other parameter.
>
>
>
> If becomes harder for people to use the parameter correctly if we are too
> flexible.
>
>
>
> I would rather have a separate logical audience parameter if we think we
> want one.
>
>
>
> John B.
>
>
>
> On Sat, Jan 19, 2019, 11:41 AM Brian Campbell <bcampbell@pingidentity.com
> wrote:
>
> No apology needed, Rifaat. And I apologize if what I said came off the
> wrong way. I was just trying to make light of the situation.. And I agree
> that we should not be hamstrung by the process and there are times when it
> makes sense to be flexible with things.
>
>
>
> On Fri, Jan 18, 2019 at 6:22 PM Rifaat Shekh-Yusef <rifaat.ietf@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> Sorry Brian, I was not clear with my statement.
>
> I meant to say that we should not allow the process to prevent the WG from
> producing a quality document without issues, assuming there is an issue in
> the first place.
>
> Ideally we want to get these identified during the WGLC, but things happen
> and sometimes the WG misses something.
>
>
>
> I hear you and agree that this make things difficult for authors. We will
> make sure that this does not become the norm, and we will try to stick to
> the process as much as possible.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
>  Rifaat
>
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, Jan 18, 2019 at 5:35 PM Brian Campbell <bcampbell@pingidentity.com>
> wrote:
>
> Thanks Rifaat. Process is as process does, right? I do kinda want to
> grumble about WGCL having passed already but that's mostly because replying
> to these kinds of threads is hard for me and I'll just get over it...
>
>
>
> As far as I understand things, the security concerns come into play when
> the client is being told the by the resource how to identity the resource
> like is described in
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-oauth-distributed-01 and using the
> actual location in that context ,along with some other checks prescribed in
> that draft, prevents the kind of issues John described earlier in the
> thread.
>
> In cases where the client knows the resource a priori or out-of-band or
> configured or whatever, I don't think the same security concerns arise. And
> using such a known value, be it an actual location or logical
> representation, would be okay.
>
> The resource-indicators draft is admittedly somewhat location-centric in
> how it talks about the value of the 'resource' parameter. But ultimately it
> defines it as an absolute URI that indicates the location of the target
> service or resource where access is being requested. A location can be
> varying shades of abstract and I'd say that using a URI as 'resource'
> parameter value that's a logical identifier that points to some resource is
> well within the bounds of the draft.
>
>
>
> So maybe the draft is okay as is?
>
>
>
> Or perhaps that's too much to be left as an exerciser to the reader?  And
> some text should be added and/or adjusted so the resource-indicators draft
> would be a little more open/clear about the parameter value potentially
> being more of a logical or abstract identifier and not necessarily a
> network addressable URL?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, Jan 18, 2019 at 1:18 PM Rifaat Shekh-Yusef <rifaat.ietf@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> I wouldn't worry too much about the process.
>
> If it makes sense to update the document, then feel free to do that.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
>  Rifaat
>
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, Jan 18, 2019 at 3:08 PM John Bradley <ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com> wrote:
>
> Yes the logical resource can be provided by "scope"
>
>
>
> Some implementations like Ping and Auth0 have been adding another
> parameter "aud" to identify the logical resource and then using scopes to
> define permissions to the resource.
>
>
>
> Fortunately, we are using a different parameter name so not stepping on
> that..
>
>
>
> We could go back and try to add text explaining the difference, but we are
> quite late in the process.
>
>
>
> I agree that a logical resource parameter may be helpful, but perhaps it
> should be a separate draft.
>
>
>
> John B.
>
>
>
> On Fri, Jan 18, 2019 at 4:38 PM Richard Backman, Annabelle <
> richanna@amazon.com> wrote:
>
> Doesn’t the “scope” parameter already provide a means of specifying a
> logical identifier?
>
>
>
> --
>
> Annabelle Richard Backman
>
> AWS Identity
>
>
>
>
>
> *From: *OAuth <oauth-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Vittorio Bertocci
> <Vittorio=40auth0.com@dmarc.ietf.org <40auth0..com@dmarc.ietf.org>>
> *Date: *Friday, January 18, 2019 at 5:47 AM
> *To: *John Bradley <ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com>
> *Cc: *IETF oauth WG <oauth@ietf.org>
> *Subject: *Re: [OAUTH-WG] Shepherd write-up for
> draft-ietf-oauth-resource-indicators-01
>
>
>
> Thanks John for the background.
>
> I agree that from the client validation PoV, having an identifier
> corresponding to a location makes things more solid.
>
> That said: the use of logical identifiers is widespread, as it has
> significant practical advantages (think of services that assign generated
> hosting URLs only at deployment time, or services that are somehow grouped
> under the same logical audience across regions/environment/deployments).
> People won't stop using logical identifiers, because they often have no
> alternative (generating new audiences on the fly at the AS every time you
> do a deployment and get assigned a new URL can be unfeasible). Leaving a
> widely used approach as exercise to the reader seems a disservice to the
> community, given that this might lead to vendors (for example Microsoft and
> Auth0) keeping their own proprietary parameters, or developers misusing the
> ones in place; would make it hard for SDK developers to provide libraries
> that work out of the box with different ASes; and so on.
>
> Would it be feasible to add such parameter directly in this spec? That
> would eliminate the interop issues, and also gives us a chance to fully
> warn people about the security shortcomings of choosing that approach.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Jan 17, 2019 at 4:32 PM John Bradley <ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com> wrote:
>
> We have discussed this.
>
> Audiences can certainly be logical identifiers.
>
> This however is a more specific location.  The AS is free to map the
> location into some abstract audience in the AT.
>
> From a security point of view once the client starts asking for logical
> resources it can be tricked into asking for the wrong one as a bad resource
> can always lie about what logical resource it is.
>
> If we were to change it, how a client would validate it becomes
> challenging to impossible.
>
> The AS is free to do whatever mapping of locations to identifiers it needs
> for access tokens.
>
> Some implementations may want to keep additional parameters like logical
> audience, but that should be separate from resource.
>
> John B.
>
> On 1/17/2019 9:56 AM, Rifaat Shekh-Yusef wrote:
>
> Hi Vittorio,
>
>
>
> The text you quoted is copied form the abstract of the draft itself.
>
>
>
>
>
> *Authors,*
>
>
>
> Should the draft be updated to cover the logical identifier case?
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
>  Rifaat
>
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Jan 17, 2019 at 8:19 AM Vittorio Bertocci <Vittorio@auth0.com>
> wrote:
>
> Hi Rifaat,
>
> one detail. The tech summary says
>
>
>
> An extension to the OAuth 2.0 Authorization Framework defining request
>
> parameters that enable a client to explicitly signal to an authorization server
>
> about the *location* of the protected resource(s) to which it is requesting
>
> access.
>
> But at least in the Microsoft implementation, the resource identifier
> doesn't *have* to be a network addressable URL (and if it is, it doesn't
> strictly need to match the actual resource location). It can be a logical
> identifier, tho using the actual resource location there has benefits
> (domain ownership check, prevention of token forwarding etc).
>
> Same for Auth0, the audience parameter is a logical identifier rather than
> a location.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Jan 16, 2019 at 6:32 PM Rifaat Shekh-Yusef <rifaat.ietf@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> All,
>
>
>
> The following is the first shepherd write-up for
> the draft-ietf-oauth-resource-indicators-01 document.
>
>
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-oauth-resource-indicators/shepherdwriteup/
>
>
>
> Please, take a look and let me know if I missed anything.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
>  Rifaat
>
>
>
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