Re: [Add] data integrity and DNSSEC or DoH/DoT
Vittorio Bertola <vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com> Fri, 06 September 2019 14:32 UTC
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Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2019 16:32:18 +0200
From: Vittorio Bertola <vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com>
Reply-To: Vittorio Bertola <vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com>
To: Paul Wouters <paul@nohats.ca>
Cc: ADD Mailing list <add@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Add] data integrity and DNSSEC or DoH/DoT
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> Il 6 settembre 2019 05:27 Paul Wouters <paul@nohats.ca> ha scritto: > > Trusting unsigned data from the internet from random parties is not done > for any other protocol, why allow it for DNS? I see your point, but one could reply: is the *content* of any web page you load signed or independently verified for integrity in any way? No, you just authenticate the source and secure the channel, and then trust any content you receive that way. So why should it be different when the content (via DoH) is a DNS response? I'm not saying that this argument is 100% right, but it's how lots of things work now. [on-device recursor] > > I think that this would have more drawbacks than advantages. > > Can you elaborate on why you think that is? Every time the idea comes up, the operations people complain that performance would be bad due to reduced caching, and the privacy people complain that it would become much easier to associate DNS queries to a specific individual/household. Moreover, having billions of active resolvers, rather than hundreds of thousands, would possibly make things like the root key rollover much harder, and exacerbate the problem of obsolete recursors. However, these are not impossible problems, so it still makes sense to have the discussion. > > So the only alternative is to facilitate the establishment of trust > > in at least one resolver. > > No because transport security provided by a resolver is not data origin > security offered by DNSSEC. This is a problem only if you trust ICANN and the zone owner more than you trust your resolver. If it's the opposite, you might just conclude that the resolver must have altered the response for a good reason, and trust the resolver anyway. > > In the end, I think that a general "resolver accreditation service" on a global scale - which Mozilla has the ambition to create with > > their TRR list - will never work due to scaling problems, unless you centralize resolution into a handful of global platforms, which > > IMHO would be a much bigger problem for the Internet. What could instead work is a way for the user to express and change an assertion > > of trust in one or more resolvers, devolving the problem to the edges of the network and letting each user define implicitly their own > > requirements for trust. > > Sounds very similar to the browsers having a store of root CA's. It > didn't really work from a trust point of view, and it was patched up > with first CRLs, then OCSP and then CT. Why make the same mistake > with DNs resolvers? Mozilla's TRR model is similar to a chain of trust with them at the root. However, the user can bless a resolver (i.e., tell the device "I trust a.b.c.d as a resolver") locally, without having to involve any central authority. (And yes, the current CA system is awful.) > Some believe TRR's are better than random ISP DNS resolvers they happen > to be (forced to) using, such as hotel or coffee shops. For example, > I've stayed at hotels whose wifi blocked Priceline and Booking.com > using DNS. So I don't see why TRR's should not be deployed until > some mysterious future time. At the current state of the technology, browsers cannot start a blanket adoption of the TRR model without breaking substantial parts of the Internet, so they shouldn't. They could do it in specific cases where they have determined that this won't create technical, service, policy and legal issues, which AFAIK is what Mozilla is trying to do. The above could be one of those cases, as long as they don't bypass local laws together with the local resolver, and don't clash with the captive portal mechanism. Still, if you care about that problem, I'd advise you to get a proper VPN now, rather than wait for TRRs in the browser. -- Vittorio Bertola | Head of Policy & Innovation, Open-Xchange vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com Office @ Via Treviso 12, 10144 Torino, Italy
- [Add] What to do in this potential working group Jari Arkko
- Re: [Add] What to do in this potential working gr… Eric Orth
- Re: [Add] What to do in this potential working gr… Jari Arkko
- Re: [Add] What to do in this potential working gr… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [Add] What to do in this potential working gr… Jim Reid
- Re: [Add] What to do in this potential working gr… Vittorio Bertola
- Re: [Add] What to do in this potential working gr… Jari Arkko
- Re: [Add] What to do in this potential working gr… Eric Vyncke (evyncke)
- Re: [Add] What to do in this potential working gr… Ted Lemon
- Re: [Add] What to do in this potential working gr… Jim Reid
- Re: [Add] What to do in this potential working gr… Ted Lemon
- Re: [Add] What to do in this potential working gr… Tommy Jensen
- Re: [Add] What to do in this potential working gr… Jari Arkko
- Re: [Add] What to do in this potential working gr… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [Add] What to do in this potential working gr… Ray Bellis
- Re: [Add] What to do in this potential working gr… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [Add] What to do in this potential working gr… Ray Bellis
- Re: [Add] What to do in this potential working gr… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [Add] What to do in this potential working gr… Ted Hardie
- Re: [Add] What to do in this potential working gr… David Conrad
- Re: [Add] What to do in this potential working gr… Alec Muffett
- Re: [Add] What to do in this potential working gr… Ted Hardie
- Re: [Add] What to do in this potential working gr… David Conrad
- Re: [Add] What to do in this potential working gr… Brian Dickson
- Re: [Add] What to do in this potential working gr… Brian Dickson
- Re: [Add] What to do in this potential working gr… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [Add] What to do in this potential working gr… Ted Hardie
- Re: [Add] What to do in this potential working gr… Alec Muffett
- Re: [Add] What to do in this potential working gr… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [Add] What to do in this potential working gr… David Conrad
- Re: [Add] What to do in this potential working gr… Rob Sayre
- Re: [Add] What to do in this potential working gr… Jari Arkko
- Re: [Add] What to do in this potential working gr… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [Add] What to do in this potential working gr… Alec Muffett
- Re: [Add] What to do in this potential working gr… Ted Hardie
- Re: [Add] What to do in this potential working gr… Adam Roach
- Re: [Add] What to do in this potential working gr… Ted Hardie
- Re: [Add] What to do in this potential working gr… David Conrad
- Re: [Add] What to do in this potential working gr… Rob Sayre
- Re: [Add] What to do in this potential working gr… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [Add] What to do in this potential working gr… Alec Muffett
- Re: [Add] What to do in this potential working gr… David Conrad
- [Add] data integrity and DNSSEC or DoH/DoT Jim Reid
- Re: [Add] What to do in this potential working gr… Rob Sayre
- Re: [Add] data integrity and DNSSEC or DoH/DoT Stephen Farrell
- Re: [Add] data integrity and DNSSEC or DoH/DoT David Conrad
- Re: [Add] data integrity and DNSSEC or DoH/DoT Rob Sayre
- Re: [Add] data integrity and DNSSEC or DoH/DoT Stephen Farrell
- Re: [Add] Unstated assumptions in What to do in t… John Levine
- Re: [Add] data integrity and DNSSEC or DoH/DoT Brian Dickson
- Re: [Add] What to do in this potential working gr… Patrik Fältström
- Re: [Add] What to do in this potential working gr… Patrik Fältström
- Re: [Add] What to do in this potential working gr… Rob Sayre
- Re: [Add] What to do in this potential working gr… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [Add] What to do in this potential working gr… Martin Thomson
- Re: [Add] data integrity and DNSSEC or DoH/DoT Eric Rescorla
- Re: [Add] What to do in this potential working gr… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [Add] What to do in this potential working gr… Jari Arkko
- Re: [Add] What to do in this potential working gr… Daniel Stenberg
- Re: [Add] What to do in this potential working gr… Jari Arkko
- Re: [Add] data integrity and DNSSEC or DoH/DoT Stephen Farrell
- Re: [Add] What to do in this potential working gr… Ray Bellis
- Re: [Add] What to do in this potential working gr… Martin J. Dürst
- Re: [Add] What to do in this potential working gr… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [Add] What to do in this potential working gr… Vittorio Bertola
- Re: [Add] What to do in this potential working gr… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [Add] What to do in this potential working gr… Ralf Weber
- Re: [Add] data integrity and DNSSEC or DoH/DoT Ralf Weber
- Re: [Add] data integrity and DNSSEC or DoH/DoT Willem Toorop
- Re: [Add] data integrity and DNSSEC or DoH/DoT Jim Reid
- Re: [Add] What to do in this potential working gr… Rubens Kuhl
- Re: [Add] data integrity and DNSSEC or DoH/DoT Paul Wouters
- Re: [Add] What to do in this potential working gr… Paul Wouters
- Re: [Add] data integrity and DNSSEC or DoH/DoT Livingood, Jason
- Re: [Add] What to do in this potential working gr… Livingood, Jason
- Re: [Add] What to do in this potential working gr… Livingood, Jason
- Re: [Add] What to do in this potential working gr… Livingood, Jason
- Re: [Add] What to do in this potential working gr… Adam Roach
- Re: [Add] What to do in this potential working gr… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [Add] data integrity and DNSSEC or DoH/DoT Eric Rescorla
- Re: [Add] data integrity and DNSSEC or DoH/DoT Rob Sayre
- Re: [Add] data integrity and DNSSEC or DoH/DoT Jim Reid
- Re: [Add] What to do in this potential working gr… Vittorio Bertola
- Re: [Add] data integrity and DNSSEC or DoH/DoT Eric Rescorla
- Re: [Add] data integrity and DNSSEC or DoH/DoT Brian Dickson
- Re: [Add] data integrity and DNSSEC or DoH/DoT Jim Reid
- Re: [Add] data integrity and DNSSEC or DoH/DoT Eric Rescorla
- Re: [Add] data integrity and DNSSEC or DoH/DoT Neil Cook
- Re: [Add] data integrity and DNSSEC or DoH/DoT Neil Cook
- Re: [Add] data integrity and DNSSEC or DoH/DoT Neil Cook
- Re: [Add] data integrity and DNSSEC or DoH/DoT Paul Wouters
- Re: [Add] data integrity and DNSSEC or DoH/DoT Christian Huitema
- Re: [Add] data integrity and DNSSEC or DoH/DoT Christian Huitema
- Re: [Add] data integrity and DNSSEC or DoH/DoT Brian Dickson
- Re: [Add] data integrity and DNSSEC or DoH/DoT Andrew Campling
- Re: [Add] data integrity and DNSSEC or DoH/DoT Vittorio Bertola
- Re: [Add] data integrity and DNSSEC or DoH/DoT Paul Wouters
- Re: [Add] data integrity and DNSSEC or DoH/DoT Vittorio Bertola
- Re: [Add] data integrity and DNSSEC or DoH/DoT Alec Muffett
- Re: [Add] data integrity and DNSSEC or DoH/DoT Alec Muffett