Re: [Add] [EXTERNAL] Re: draft-grover-add-policy-detection-00
Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com> Tue, 16 July 2019 20:48 UTC
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From: Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2019 13:47:48 -0700
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To: ek@loon.com
Cc: Rob Sayre <sayrer@gmail.com>, add@ietf.org, "Dixon, Hugh" <Hugh.Dixon@sky.uk>, Alec Muffett <alec.muffett@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [Add] [EXTERNAL] Re: draft-grover-add-policy-detection-00
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On Tue, Jul 16, 2019 at 1:37 PM Erik Kline <ek@loon.com> wrote: > > > On Tue, 16 Jul 2019 at 13:24, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com> wrote: > >> >> >> On Tue, Jul 16, 2019 at 1:17 PM Rob Sayre <sayrer@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> On Tue, Jul 16, 2019 at 1:11 PM Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com> wrote: >>> >>>> >>>>> In fairness, I'm not sure I quite follow. But, if I worked at a >>>>> browser vendor, I would be worried about DoH rollout too. I think I'd >>>>> gradually ratchet up the security signals in the location bar with the end >>>>> result of marking sites insecure if their IP was fetched over DNS in the >>>>> clear. >>>>> >>>> >>>> Ignoring the UI question, let me push a bit on "in the clear". >>>> >>> >>> Sure, but I don't you should ignore the UI question. Having been on the >>> receiving end of a few "why is the lock broken on our site?" emails from a >>> CEO, I can tell you it is really effective. >>> >>> >>>> >>>> Currently, resolvers are configured by IP address, not domain name. >>>> >>> >>> This is true, so companies go for stuff like 1.1.1.1 and 8.8.8.8. >>> >> >> Right, but if you're getting that out of DHCP, that doesn't help, because >> you can't trust that. >> >> >>> >>>> So absent mechanisms such as TRR, how does the DNS client form a secure >>>> connection to the resolver? What domain name is in the certificate and how >>>> does the client learn that domain name? >>>> >>> >>> I agree that there's a bootstrapping problem, but I don't think this >>> draft helps with that. >>> >> >> I'm not saying it does. I'm just trying to work through the entire >> problem. What I'm arguing here is that absent external configuration (e.g., >> DoH/TRR), there's no real way to get encrypted DNS that is secure against >> active attack. >> > > When we did the DNS-over-TLS config for Android we chose it be > hostname-based, on the theory that you could bootstrap using the > network-provided nameservers, DNSSEC (which, admittedly, Android didn't > support), and TLS (including optional browser security measures on top, > perhaps cert pinning, etc.) > > I couldn't see how to make it much better than that. > Yes, this is how Firefox works as well, but that requires someone to supply Fx with the hostname. -Ekr > -Ekr >> >> >> >>> thanks, >>> Rob >>> >>> >>> >>>> >>>> -Ekr >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> This is distinct from choosing a DNS vendor. >>>>> >>>>> thanks, >>>>> Rob >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >> Add mailing list >> Add@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/add >> >
- [Add] draft-grover-add-policy-detection-00 Rob Sayre
- Re: [Add] draft-grover-add-policy-detection-00 Andy Grover
- Re: [Add] draft-grover-add-policy-detection-00 Rob Sayre
- Re: [Add] draft-grover-add-policy-detection-00 Eric Rescorla
- Re: [Add] draft-grover-add-policy-detection-00 Rob Sayre
- Re: [Add] draft-grover-add-policy-detection-00 Eric Rescorla
- Re: [Add] draft-grover-add-policy-detection-00 Rob Sayre
- Re: [Add] draft-grover-add-policy-detection-00 Vittorio Bertola
- Re: [Add] draft-grover-add-policy-detection-00 Alec Muffett
- Re: [Add] draft-grover-add-policy-detection-00 Alec Muffett
- Re: [Add] draft-grover-add-policy-detection-00 Alec Muffett
- Re: [Add] [EXTERNAL] Re: draft-grover-add-policy-… Dixon, Hugh
- Re: [Add] [EXTERNAL] Re: draft-grover-add-policy-… Dixon, Hugh
- Re: [Add] [EXTERNAL] Re: draft-grover-add-policy-… Alec Muffett
- Re: [Add] [EXTERNAL] Re: draft-grover-add-policy-… Vittorio Bertola
- Re: [Add] [EXTERNAL] Re: draft-grover-add-policy-… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [Add] [EXTERNAL] Re: draft-grover-add-policy-… Rob Sayre
- Re: [Add] [EXTERNAL] Re: draft-grover-add-policy-… Dixon, Hugh
- Re: [Add] [EXTERNAL] Re: draft-grover-add-policy-… Rob Sayre
- Re: [Add] [EXTERNAL] Re: draft-grover-add-policy-… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [Add] [EXTERNAL] Re: draft-grover-add-policy-… Rob Sayre
- Re: [Add] [EXTERNAL] Re: draft-grover-add-policy-… Tommy Jensen
- Re: [Add] [EXTERNAL] Re: draft-grover-add-policy-… Michael Sinatra
- Re: [Add] [EXTERNAL] Re: draft-grover-add-policy-… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [Add] [EXTERNAL] Re: draft-grover-add-policy-… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [Add] [EXTERNAL] Re: draft-grover-add-policy-… Jim Reid
- [Add] Firefox DoH behaviour Jim Reid
- Re: [Add] [EXTERNAL] Re: draft-grover-add-policy-… Michael Sinatra
- Re: [Add] [EXTERNAL] Re: draft-grover-add-policy-… Rob Sayre
- Re: [Add] Firefox DoH behaviour Eric Rescorla
- Re: [Add] [EXTERNAL] Re: draft-grover-add-policy-… Alec Muffett
- Re: [Add] [EXTERNAL] Re: draft-grover-add-policy-… Michael Richardson
- Re: [Add] [EXTERNAL] Re: draft-grover-add-policy-… Michael Sinatra
- Re: [Add] [EXTERNAL] Re: draft-grover-add-policy-… Rob Sayre
- Re: [Add] [EXTERNAL] Re: draft-grover-add-policy-… Rob Sayre
- Re: [Add] [EXTERNAL] Re: Firefox DoH behaviour Deen, Glenn (NBCUniversal)
- Re: [Add] [EXTERNAL] Re: draft-grover-add-policy-… Paul Ebersman
- Re: [Add] [EXTERNAL] Re: draft-grover-add-policy-… Rob Sayre
- Re: [Add] [EXTERNAL] Re: draft-grover-add-policy-… Rob Sayre
- Re: [Add] [EXTERNAL] Re: Firefox DoH behaviour Eric Rescorla
- Re: [Add] [EXTERNAL] Re: draft-grover-add-policy-… Barry Greene
- Re: [Add] [EXTERNAL] Re: draft-grover-add-policy-… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [Add] [EXTERNAL] Re: draft-grover-add-policy-… Jim Reid
- Re: [Add] [EXTERNAL] Re: draft-grover-add-policy-… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [Add] [EXTERNAL] Re: draft-grover-add-policy-… Rob Sayre
- Re: [Add] [EXTERNAL] Re: draft-grover-add-policy-… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [Add] [EXTERNAL] Re: draft-grover-add-policy-… Rob Sayre
- Re: [Add] [EXTERNAL] Re: draft-grover-add-policy-… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [Add] [EXTERNAL] Re: draft-grover-add-policy-… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [Add] [EXTERNAL] Re: draft-grover-add-policy-… Rob Sayre
- Re: [Add] [EXTERNAL] Re: draft-grover-add-policy-… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [Add] [EXTERNAL] Re: draft-grover-add-policy-… Erik Kline
- Re: [Add] [EXTERNAL] Re: draft-grover-add-policy-… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [Add] [EXTERNAL] Re: draft-grover-add-policy-… Rob Sayre
- Re: [Add] [EXTERNAL] Re: draft-grover-add-policy-… Michael Sinatra
- Re: [Add] [EXTERNAL] Re: Firefox DoH behaviour Erik Kline
- Re: [Add] [EXTERNAL] Re: draft-grover-add-policy-… Rob Sayre
- Re: [Add] [EXTERNAL] Re: draft-grover-add-policy-… Vittorio Bertola
- Re: [Add] [EXTERNAL] Re: draft-grover-add-policy-… Rob Sayre
- Re: [Add] [EXTERNAL] Re: draft-grover-add-policy-… tirumal reddy
- Re: [Add] [EXTERNAL] Re: draft-grover-add-policy-… Ted Hardie
- Re: [Add] [EXTERNAL] Re: draft-grover-add-policy-… Neil Cook
- Re: [Add] [EXTERNAL] Re: draft-grover-add-policy-… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [Add] [EXTERNAL] Re: draft-grover-add-policy-… Ted Hardie
- Re: [Add] [EXTERNAL] Re: draft-grover-add-policy-… Neil Cook
- Re: [Add] [EXTERNAL] Re: draft-grover-add-policy-… Neil Cook
- Re: [Add] [EXTERNAL] Re: draft-grover-add-policy-… Alec Muffett
- Re: [Add] [EXTERNAL] Re: draft-grover-add-policy-… Neil Cook
- Re: [Add] [EXTERNAL] Re: draft-grover-add-policy-… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [Add] [EXTERNAL] Re: draft-grover-add-policy-… Alec Muffett
- Re: [Add] [EXTERNAL] Re: draft-grover-add-policy-… Evan Hunt
- Re: [Add] [EXTERNAL] Re: draft-grover-add-policy-… Rob Sayre
- Re: [Add] [EXTERNAL] Re: draft-grover-add-policy-… Paul Ebersman
- Re: [Add] [EXTERNAL] Re: draft-grover-add-policy-… Paul Ebersman
- Re: [Add] [EXTERNAL] Re: draft-grover-add-policy-… Brian Dickson
- Re: [Add] [EXTERNAL] Re: draft-grover-add-policy-… Rob Sayre
- Re: [Add] [EXTERNAL] Re: draft-grover-add-policy-… Alec Muffett
- Re: [Add] [EXTERNAL] Re: draft-grover-add-policy-… Paul Ebersman
- Re: [Add] [EXTERNAL] Re: draft-grover-add-policy-… Ted Hardie
- Re: [Add] [EXTERNAL] Re: draft-grover-add-policy-… Rob Sayre
- Re: [Add] [EXTERNAL] Re: draft-grover-add-policy-… Brian Dickson
- Re: [Add] [EXTERNAL] Re: draft-grover-add-policy-… Ted Hardie
- Re: [Add] [EXTERNAL] Re: draft-grover-add-policy-… Vittorio Bertola
- Re: [Add] [EXTERNAL] Re: draft-grover-add-policy-… Rob Sayre
- Re: [Add] [EXTERNAL] Re: draft-grover-add-policy-… Vittorio Bertola
- Re: [Add] [EXTERNAL] Re: draft-grover-add-policy-… Brian Dickson
- Re: [Add] [EXTERNAL] Re: draft-grover-add-policy-… Rob Sayre
- Re: [Add] [EXTERNAL] Re: draft-grover-add-policy-… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [Add] [EXTERNAL] Re: draft-grover-add-policy-… Alec Muffett
- Re: [Add] [EXTERNAL] Re: draft-grover-add-policy-… Rob Sayre
- Re: [Add] [EXTERNAL] Re: draft-grover-add-policy-… Ralf Weber
- Re: [Add] [EXTERNAL] Re: draft-grover-add-policy-… Livingood, Jason