Re: [admin-discuss] Attempt to diagram the structure of the IETF

Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie> Tue, 22 February 2022 06:28 UTC

Return-Path: <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>
X-Original-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 52D8E3A0DEA; Mon, 21 Feb 2022 22:28:09 -0800 (PST)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -7.715
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-7.715 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.714, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=cs.tcd.ie
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dLh6wYy7smsa; Mon, 21 Feb 2022 22:28:04 -0800 (PST)
Received: from EUR01-HE1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-eopbgr130107.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.107.13.107]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 53B283A1212; Mon, 21 Feb 2022 22:28:00 -0800 (PST)
ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector9901; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=ZuyNNfM8T1rTj4FD4n5oqSjhJ36wgadCmZxm/892o1p4Sj8lIkTXGXMzj/MEBaJ0aIUu+igiCs+i5qX7YNe2hnP6bUj2Hiu04+ldtI3sOndXbFT0kdPoNmUNLKQOzGvgIBHkTyZ7JGKuUfSOTjQ8ZvckEZnAm9HAj0eeS4p/jpd4xkIsskBDF2OMzPdF9l+McsPnptzMMNBYOTIM2rB2/n2VpzpTxYRE3kIgUm4aBVRv36WSHDg83/nRmP8oFqwce5XGXikzulC9/XBofbcx9943/bT0HEnnIQ9oCmYnVsZZx3Y6tAJziqTE7EcQk3tGg84E8lMh2y+6ac2wBNaQ9A==
ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com; s=arcselector9901; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-ChunkCount:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-0:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-1; bh=Pxo8Uwkl1NqXRkki0+QY1Gb9EHJnfa1bWUZ+m6hVKBk=; b=bFDbWIef3rFcSIzqKyFS5P1mw5xN6UvVCq/LzAlhf12lCxJ1pyav6uJiDNKXtxakfeIoBvFk4pSdVOXgFLmiDEk7rdZj9kdtosSV8U77a6LvoXQauDiwLBOAVnYdNM64SjnBJW/NB/ZjRSdUEqER6bd9f7h5AkEt2lIsfKukN8GPl6U4lGuU2ikG01hjS9OekQMd+5pv9hBhc1ZcgrPW64QPJbzidADnGL3LrL5FhluEexBbXY2DZrWkTbNXUs6ynVKqyc1S3jeR6RPzJYPcRGTI11bHRp0iALOrXV7PARGzQlAr2neU/mGev0K6B4kmFVfnegY/0jQ1sQse46Vz4g==
ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=cs.tcd.ie; dmarc=pass action=none header.from=cs.tcd.ie; dkim=pass header.d=cs.tcd.ie; arc=none
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cs.tcd.ie; s=selector1; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=Pxo8Uwkl1NqXRkki0+QY1Gb9EHJnfa1bWUZ+m6hVKBk=; b=UYeBhTBNgwfcoRCR0qUtnlKZEIgF3DUq2zSmCKLaGlKQv0mfr5UvCBk/TGH5e9OEnS/T60+j0tqo3PAEyZw3m5j+GQhZKe95rkWGCB9CrmGopUAvW/NIAAb6WxvoV4MOL9GHEo/82kL7RAyKKR3X4gWu2IDtosCZb/IRyCrrl6jS+dIDM+F4HSd1ypYdi/8LH0ufYjXXimAI+QVLn3Hok51wzeEcfa6RG3Kg4bA0P9QS+1zt/Evvg+bYqkMLSVPII4w4sZvZzQrjXsL+LZ2QLG6hrKW4IfzskQ542qVO9Nd9eslWVX/E5xd6rahs8yrFUy5GQj33D32Ym8LSgrFULA==
Authentication-Results: dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;dmarc=none action=none header.from=cs.tcd.ie;
Received: from DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:10:77::15) by DB3PR0202MB3561.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:8:8::22) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.4995.27; Tue, 22 Feb 2022 06:27:54 +0000
Received: from DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::e07e:60ee:a20b:5f2]) by DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::e07e:60ee:a20b:5f2%3]) with mapi id 15.20.4975.011; Tue, 22 Feb 2022 06:27:54 +0000
Message-ID: <6473d6d2-0cac-35c7-3ff0-982989f29aec@cs.tcd.ie>
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2022 06:27:46 +0000
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.5.0
Content-Language: en-US
To: Jay Daley <exec-director@ietf.org>
Cc: admin-discuss@ietf.org
References: <12F3A997-DF48-4AA1-B744-8D310D460397@ietf.org> <0F630F4E-7646-4885-B31D-A16805B776CA@gmail.com> <2FA08C30-2D8D-4F2A-9B40-A865654B54E0@ietf.org> <49BE4C0D-87F7-4B5B-8342-789E678F0238@gmail.com> <BE917FFB-E149-4712-90B7-3EC356AF60B0@ietf.org>
From: Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>
In-Reply-To: <BE917FFB-E149-4712-90B7-3EC356AF60B0@ietf.org>
Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------Xkpjxx2BlR0ukRl0kZJ9rnvz"
X-ClientProxiedBy: BY5PR13CA0011.namprd13.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:a03:180::24) To DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:10:77::15)
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-MS-Exchange-MessageSentRepresentingType: 1
X-MS-PublicTrafficType: Email
X-MS-Office365-Filtering-Correlation-Id: aef5ad6f-c843-48cc-df90-08d9f5cc75ae
X-MS-TrafficTypeDiagnostic: DB3PR0202MB3561:EE_
X-MS-Exchange-SharedMailbox-RoutingAgent-Processed: True
X-Microsoft-Antispam-PRVS: <DB3PR0202MB35611216BE230A5C934B58F2A83B9@DB3PR0202MB3561.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com>
X-TCD-Routed-via-EOP: Routed via EOP
X-TCD-ROUTED: Passed-Transport-Routing-Rules
X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck: 1
X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-Relay: 0
X-Microsoft-Antispam: BCL:0;
X-Microsoft-Antispam-Message-Info: 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
X-Forefront-Antispam-Report: CIP:255.255.255.255; CTRY:; LANG:en; SCL:1; SRV:; IPV:NLI; SFV:NSPM; H:DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com; PTR:; CAT:NONE; SFS:(13230001)(4636009)(366004)(26005)(2616005)(8936002)(38100700002)(2906002)(86362001)(186003)(235185007)(5660300002)(6512007)(31696002)(44832011)(21480400003)(786003)(316002)(66946007)(83380400001)(31686004)(66476007)(6916009)(53546011)(33964004)(6506007)(966005)(6486002)(36756003)(8676002)(508600001)(4326008)(6666004)(66556008)(450100002)(43740500002)(45980500001); DIR:OUT; SFP:1102;
X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-ChunkCount: 1
X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-0: =?utf-8?B?U0l3bzFlakRNWUFrVUFDMnpzR3ZpT012cHBXL0pRQmZPbkxqSnRoRjR6TXpr?= =?utf-8?B?amhCRXdnRlA1QVdkdWZMK0FrNDdCT01iWjF3c0MzM3FGSzNRUXhPSjVjb00r?= =?utf-8?B?TnI5UUFIQ0xFUGl4NjVqRkx3Y1pmYzBtcnd2dUl4K2dzM3RDUjJnQmpNbzVq?= =?utf-8?B?a2VaRW44QmlRSEozSDZNV3lkcHltNllZczVlc04wNlhFc3hUa0tESU8xV21S?= =?utf-8?B?TUNtVzFtZUhhQ0NkTjlYNHJ4b0lzU3hYUFlCRWdxZWo5OStsNklzMDgwZTNz?= =?utf-8?B?S1VaaVA2K1psRkhncDlYaDJTcFBkTTFkRGV6MGcyNmtoMDlKekpaSWEwWlo0?= =?utf-8?B?RHZzRzdXM1FuSk5VNVAyL3laV2NKS2liNmduclhwNFpPdEdOOTk3WnZzY3E5?= =?utf-8?B?N1FnTWlUNEF5K21sZ2lpcDlNaUV6bXRxNk16bjZaZWtPQTZHdWJ4T3l0d0gz?= =?utf-8?B?ZHB4Sk9lODgrTUl3Wm5mL3RaanRWSXpwNUlvRWphWVhqcTJiMGliNUEzY2Vs?= =?utf-8?B?ZVZwRWVYYlBXTldWMnMxZUw1UGg1SUNTcWZLNytIK0pSeUlKTEF3TFFBU3JI?= =?utf-8?B?YVRycytoSFQ0QUdXNVlsUVkwNHN3NDEyamQ2akVrcDlZMmxqejVkYU55NUEy?= =?utf-8?B?d0g0QnIra0htTE00amY0ZzE3TnErMm03Qi9ZUnpIQnkwRWtDWXdvbHRWUllB?= =?utf-8?B?TUpqcGhITk1HcDJyaU93dk1MalFXaHN0K1hOcGp2L2RydnFHdUQ5Mk1ia2Iw?= =?utf-8?B?bjlRSEtmNlZyV2hvV0pwQ3dCL0lHQjUvOEsySEtOMVBDN2h0MUw5Zlk5VXRQ?= =?utf-8?B?TllLL1FRS29FQXlvQWc2NTdXcHdDRG5VaXdRT2xhRlVEZjVuUW5CU1ZqQWMw?= =?utf-8?B?QktYcUdOSTd3TVRaalJ3T3hSVFNOVm5pVVdaODA4WnhtVENKVThaU3lrU0VX?= =?utf-8?B?UDlJaVc4MGxxQW56V3hHVWRqMGJaaEdWa2J0OUhDK3FpSE15d1lTY0tMZXFI?= =?utf-8?B?aUZ4L0hJRVFwZlZ0bjA5RHFTZmlYY3JNL2E3cDlzd2NYNXhTVFY4ZWlmTkl6?= =?utf-8?B?Zm5BamVCQXhBRWxnMVE5SHAvVGhiN0lFVVlOWVlHYVNxZUkvdlZkUU9YZWFN?= =?utf-8?B?Mi83b3QyWGsrVXYya2NienVCMnB6enQ1c21rWHJPcmRNcmtraWp2a1RlZTg4?= =?utf-8?B?aUI0RDlYcmlHcHpYQnJsTjZXODVEelIzaDl2R1RzSjJJVEQ1ZUMzeS9qRkxy?= =?utf-8?B?VksydVh0WU1CMFlFaG1zUzB4RFREOHJXaUVWYnRJOG43SkJnMnJRR3p3c0RZ?= =?utf-8?B?VkZ1bG9QQzJDMGdmKzM3NTR1YUNRaWVlWS9YWWc4aHQ2eVdKVmxDdUQ0eUl5?= =?utf-8?B?bmpiZXNuT2VLMkxKVFVJZVh2eHlxT0tJYTZtUi82a0RUaFZEbi81OWVmWXV5?= =?utf-8?B?RW9FdG4wWEVqbG1SWTk4RE9GakZDN1RpeWd2SFZzS1l3eXpvY2hBQUM3anlG?= =?utf-8?B?b1dhVElwMDFybEVJOEhuSWtSc1ZqUEZJMTAwZklKSjR3L1M4Y3IrNnFrNVdh?= =?utf-8?B?WkFLVzdZZUg4S0pGZkxHUnRSZjhYcTE5WHNnSUQrNkpRYUtjZnJDbFpVWmVv?= =?utf-8?B?eW9tVzNhclMrVXdIdzRHMjJrTEc2dTNENWRiQXgyNmtwRWNJOC8zVnM5OWd0?= =?utf-8?B?VExxWXNCYXVtcldXVmtFbzdaVmFVU0VyMTYxcVlDSnJRWnA1MDhsdjhIeGdI?= =?utf-8?B?OWdzbEV4MFl0OEc0VENSYlpJU3NmU3VQRjNhTmF4N0QvUy9td1NXNlQ1NjhY?= =?utf-8?B?UjF6U05nZHpscXJWVXpodDZzYjNNTkN2enV4RGVRZFBVL1dHR29ITElIUVFV?= =?utf-8?B?bHQ3RTFvMTlNbjhvL0V4cUhtTnJQTm92ZVhaN0dsSG1ZZGRJVDZZS0VCMFlu?= =?utf-8?B?Z2l6bDJudmU1bzhNNDFDWlZKaTRzRHVWdUJEZW56NlFQR2gzY3E3UUNoV1hV?= =?utf-8?B?a20rOVEremZyOHZGOEoxS0pYejJSV29VNElIbGhKV2VkM1pYRk45bVUxUkJv?= =?utf-8?B?cWI0aWZYN2NuVElESVhoNFRlNlplU1ByMWpjU1A0aTU3TEtHbE02TmI1bmw3?= =?utf-8?Q?hmkU=3D?=
X-OriginatorOrg: cs.tcd.ie
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: aef5ad6f-c843-48cc-df90-08d9f5cc75ae
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-OriginalArrivalTime: 22 Feb 2022 06:27:54.7414 (UTC)
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-FromEntityHeader: Hosted
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Id: d595be8d-b306-45f4-8064-9e5b82fbe52b
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-MailboxType: HOSTED
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-UserPrincipalName: vYEQmqk+GUNRQeocQhhojKUdKe1h0gobQWP809yAOiuLYBAglPkbjgO16PAdpdSp
X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DB3PR0202MB3561
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/admin-discuss/5yV-jBCvX2aRnIlwX5azokKpI4c>
Subject: Re: [admin-discuss] Attempt to diagram the structure of the IETF
X-BeenThere: admin-discuss@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: Discussion list for IETF LLC administrative issues <admin-discuss.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/admin-discuss>, <mailto:admin-discuss-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/admin-discuss/>
List-Post: <mailto:admin-discuss@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:admin-discuss-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/admin-discuss>, <mailto:admin-discuss-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2022 06:28:10 -0000

Hiya,

I do think this effort is worthy and useful. That said...

On 22/02/2022 03:17, Jay Daley wrote:
> https://www.ietf.org/media/documents/IETF_Structure_-_February_2022.png

One comment on the graphic, and one on the thread:

Graphic: I'd suggest s/structure/super-structure/ in the
title because...

On the thread: I don't think one can fit the concepts of an
IETF participant nor of the "volunteers" relationship in any
diagram like this, and those (IMO) are the really central
concepts that are important in understanding (what I think of
as) the important players and relationships.

It is a good thing to better understand how the various
designed components of superstructure relate, but that'd,
if taken alone, (which isn't I'm sure the intent at all),
give a misleading impression.

But, were there a useful graphical way to indicate that
all this hinges on participants who choose to volunteer to
do stuff, then that'd be a useful improvement to the image.

Cheers,
S.