Re: [alto] Cellular information exposure discussion (Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-huang-alto-mowie-for-network-aware-app-04.txt

mohamed.boucadair@orange.com Wed, 20 July 2022 07:40 UTC

Return-Path: <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>
X-Original-To: alto@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: alto@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E9AEC16ECAF for <alto@ietfa.amsl.com>; Wed, 20 Jul 2022 00:40:34 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.103
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.103 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, RCVD_IN_ZEN_BLOCKED_OPENDNS=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, URIBL_DBL_BLOCKED_OPENDNS=0.001, URIBL_ZEN_BLOCKED_OPENDNS=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=orange.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([50.223.129.194]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id azKkQDSE8Br1 for <alto@ietfa.amsl.com>; Wed, 20 Jul 2022 00:40:30 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from relais-inet.orange.com (relais-inet.orange.com [80.12.70.34]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8A471C16ECA2 for <alto@ietf.org>; Wed, 20 Jul 2022 00:40:29 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from opfednr04.francetelecom.fr (unknown [xx.xx.xx.68]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by opfednr23.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTPS id 4Lnnfz2htcz5wTS; Wed, 20 Jul 2022 09:40:27 +0200 (CEST)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=orange.com; s=ORANGE001; t=1658302827; bh=qHtD6TLgjkq3p1Y7lKLrE/aPoS4zzfg/yajv2vjhCeE=; h=From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version; b=f2PAUQL5N/ljj22EXOcU/XkgxjtpH+ihh4ypcMppzsZZfBN3Y9TMOKkhgNaK+SuuD 3YqLq8pDP3tN6M1S7YqrY/eZEO0gVPisspxkgScKBE10/c3/wiZDADyYqHJDh8bPCs gH7TndzKnC9qxEGlbwPazNPfTDv9evnZq73jDt58nT2ilOwRFsjDY2CgG6mrcFGSdp GNjS1OnlGgeY21U9BeLZkBexD08cgxeoXsQHnrPTyBLb4bG86LqFEFUs3gChQonG96 CgFZCm/aWNeSuq6fVhE+gZXSgaqjRJ5v62vuh4Ta2tNyI9J7FWeOKwJOTM+5gvseRQ PjnS5vOpzJSrw==
From: mohamed.boucadair@orange.com
To: Eric <kinderboy2008@gmail.com>, "Y. Richard Yang" <yang.r.yang@yale.edu>
CC: IETF ALTO <alto@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [alto] Cellular information exposure discussion (Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-huang-alto-mowie-for-network-aware-app-04.txt
Thread-Index: AQHYm6pj0fUXq1h4UkCK37azfo2L4a2GY68AgAB70ZA=
Content-Class:
Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2022 07:40:26 +0000
Message-ID: <23481_1658302827_62D7B16B_23481_191_1_837128dbd1fd4e80b52d691da82e54e8@orange.com>
References: <165757406031.5539.3030455944848321635@ietfa.amsl.com> <CANUuoLoF1kC16dck5gJmjmAv7CVx3NYKC1mZNApXFqcdFUR59g@mail.gmail.com> <CANUuoLqx6HT6LOZkKETS_vTgEcA6-d=UVFCL6R+nfmeXYBknog@mail.gmail.com> <12135_1658258341_62D703A5_12135_108_1_819db80bd5614a369fa8d471950c609c@orange.com> <CANUuoLotJW735isWSqd8ECMhVrQgG2OcD5v+tNTSOHb7f1uLyQ@mail.gmail.com> <CAGp0upOVcu9nkoO-VXvrBnavEaZbP2JqNBj-CaFMOxVN8QHLCQ@mail.gmail.com>
In-Reply-To: <CAGp0upOVcu9nkoO-VXvrBnavEaZbP2JqNBj-CaFMOxVN8QHLCQ@mail.gmail.com>
Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US
Content-Language: fr-FR
X-MS-Has-Attach:
X-MS-TNEF-Correlator:
msip_labels: MSIP_Label_07222825-62ea-40f3-96b5-5375c07996e2_Enabled=true; MSIP_Label_07222825-62ea-40f3-96b5-5375c07996e2_SetDate=2022-07-20T07:36:46Z; MSIP_Label_07222825-62ea-40f3-96b5-5375c07996e2_Method=Privileged; MSIP_Label_07222825-62ea-40f3-96b5-5375c07996e2_Name=unrestricted_parent.2; MSIP_Label_07222825-62ea-40f3-96b5-5375c07996e2_SiteId=90c7a20a-f34b-40bf-bc48-b9253b6f5d20; MSIP_Label_07222825-62ea-40f3-96b5-5375c07996e2_ActionId=9324e935-b309-4ac0-81b9-54f6012d95c4; MSIP_Label_07222825-62ea-40f3-96b5-5375c07996e2_ContentBits=0
x-originating-ip: [10.115.27.51]
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_837128dbd1fd4e80b52d691da82e54e8orangecom_"
MIME-Version: 1.0
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/alto/GT92DRsZ0I0Ffxtgv4elJsxxRlQ>
Subject: Re: [alto] Cellular information exposure discussion (Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-huang-alto-mowie-for-network-aware-app-04.txt
X-BeenThere: alto@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.39
Precedence: list
List-Id: "Application-Layer Traffic Optimization \(alto\) WG mailing list" <alto.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/alto>, <mailto:alto-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/alto/>
List-Post: <mailto:alto@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:alto-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/alto>, <mailto:alto-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2022 07:40:34 -0000

Hi Eric, Richard, all,

Thank you for sharing these details.

FWIW, you may find some very few comments on the first part of the draft at:


  *   pdf: https://github.com/boucadair/IETF-Drafts-Reviews/raw/master/draft-huang-alto-mowie-for-network-aware-app-04-rev%20Med.pdf
  *   doc: https://github.com/boucadair/IETF-Drafts-Reviews/raw/master/draft-huang-alto-mowie-for-network-aware-app-04-rev%20Med.doc

Cheers,
Med

De : Eric <kinderboy2008@gmail.com>
Envoyé : mercredi 20 juillet 2022 04:13
À : Y. Richard Yang <yang.r.yang@yale.edu>
Cc : BOUCADAIR Mohamed INNOV/NET <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>; IETF ALTO <alto@ietf.org>
Objet : Re: [alto] Cellular information exposure discussion (Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-huang-alto-mowie-for-network-aware-app-04.txt

Hi Richard and Med,

This is Yixue from Tencent who works in 3GPP for 15 years but new to IETF.___^ .   But actually from years ago, even in my Ph. D study, I like reading some IETF and IRTF drafts  and several years ago,I  have noticed ALTO WG in IETF as in Tencent my research and standard interests are focusing on how application and network could coordinate.

Regarding to the Med's question on whether the proposed extensions are being discussed in 3GPP, let me try to give a brief answer.

As we know, 3GPP has continuous efforts on network exposure even from 4G.  In 5G, network exposure is a native feature and in Rel-17 and Rel-18 there are particular interest on how network exposure is utilized to optimized advanced interactive services (like cloud gaming, AR, VR etc).   From our point of view, the main technical reason is that for these application, there are more challenges which require more collaboration between application layer and network layer to overcome.  Just as we summarized in MoWIE draft 04, 3GPP and also ETSI are working on some mechanism to enable network exposure in a step-wise approach.

Meanwhile, 3GPP is mainly focusing on standards within 5G system,  in many cases, there is inevitable case that the application servers may be deployed at the data network outside 5G system gateway (i.e. UPF), to achieve end-to-end application optimization, have some corresponding standard work in IETF is also important from our view.

To be more specific,  by doing some cellular information exposing work in 3GPP, in addition to the parameters within 5G system, some 3GPP defined functionalities like AF, NEF, can have some ALTO related functions  to support cellular network information exposure to applications.   How application layer utilize the exposed information to optimize user experience is not standardized in 3GPP which I also think may be considered in IETF.  I think this has been reflected by C1~C3 which Richard has listed in previous e-mail.

Thanks a lot!
Br, Yixue from Tencent

Y. Richard Yang <yang.r.yang@yale.edu<mailto:yang.r.yang@yale.edu>> 于2022年7月20日周三 04:02写道:
Hi Med,

There are some efforts in 3GPP; the mowie draft discussed related 3GPP efforts. I will let Tencent team (Yannis, Yixue, Yuhang) to give more info. I do not believe there are related efforts in W2; that is, shorten the feedback loop from passthrough-bounce to direct send. Zili can give an update. I see that we need coordination with 3GPP, and we will reach out to include those at 3GPP with related efforts and include them in the email thread. Is this you would suggest?

Thanks!
Richard

On Tue, Jul 19, 2022 at 12:19 PM <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com<mailto:mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>> wrote:
Hi Richard,

Thanks for this information.

Just out of curiosity, are the proposed extensions currently discussed in the 3GPP?

Cheers,
Med

De : alto <alto-bounces@ietf.org<mailto:alto-bounces@ietf.org>> De la part de Y. Richard Yang
Envoyé : mardi 19 juillet 2022 20:14
À : IETF ALTO <alto@ietf.org<mailto:alto@ietf.org>>
Objet : [alto] Cellular information exposure discussion (Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-huang-alto-mowie-for-network-aware-app-04.txt


Hi ALTO WG,

During the weekly meeting today, the design team discussed about the document, and suggested that the authors update the WG on a new version of the MOWIE draft, which was uploaded last week and focuses on cellular network information exposure to network-aware applications. The links to the new version and the diff showing the updates can be found below. Any comments, feedback, or interests in working together are welcome and greatly appreciated.

Using this email, we also want to include that there are two quite relevant pieces of work:
W1. PBE-CC: Congestion Control via Endpoint-Centric, Physical-Layer Bandwidth Measurements (https://arxiv.org/abs/2002.03475), by Yaxiong Xie, Prof. Jamieson, and Prof. Rexford;
W2. Achieving Consistent Low Latency for Wireless Real-Time Communications with the Shortest Control Loop (paper to be made public soon), by Zili, and Prof. Mingwei and team.

It helps to use this email to point out a bigger picture of the problem space and related work. One perspective is that the problem space consists of 3 components:
C1. What cellular-network information should be collected to be sent to the applications?
C2. How is the cellular information sent to the applications?
C3. How do the applications use the information?

It is important to note that the full exploration of the problem space is not included in the current charter. However, this is an important problem space and hence it helps  to keep track of the progress and potential impacts on ALTO.

For C1, the impact will be the list of performance metrics. For C3, the current ALTO charter does not include items to define application behaviors, but it can be a point of discussion related to deployment.

The most relevant component is C2. We discussed the following design points for C2:
D-broadcast: network broadcasts its state
D-pass-bounce: network marks its state on pass-through packets and the receiver bounces the state back to the sender
D-direct-send: network sends its state to app directly
Here by state it can be transformed state.

Current ALTO is designed as D-direct-send. Due to lacking of deployment of D-direct-send in cellular network, aforementioned W1 uses D-broadcast; the D-pass-bounce design need at least a round trip time and couples network feedback flow with data flow, leading to the aforementioned W2 work.

Many of us feel that the time is ready for introducing a highly efficient, flexible channel for network state exposure to applications, led by IETF, and the ALTO team can be a good starting point. As a first step, a systematic evaluation, which (1) surveys the design space and (2) introduces the use cases/benchmarking scenarios, can be a good starting point.

If there is time available in the coming 114 meeting, we can discuss more during the presentation. Otherwise, on-list discussion is a good starting point. We will follow up with more analysis on the list soon but use this email to get the conversation started.

Thanks,

Richard on behalf of Tuesday meeting team



---------- Forwarded message ---------
From: <internet-drafts@ietf.org<mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org>>
Date: Mon, Jul 11, 2022 at 2:14 PM
Subject: New Version Notification for draft-huang-alto-mowie-for-network-aware-app-04.txt
To: Y. Richard Yang <yang.r.yang@yale.edu<mailto:yang.r.yang@yale.edu>>, Gang Li <ligangyf@chinamobile.com<mailto:ligangyf@chinamobile.com>>, Sabine Randriamasy <sabine.randriamasy@nokia-bell-labs.com<mailto:sabine.randriamasy@nokia-bell-labs.com>>, Yixue Lei <yixuelei@tencent.com<mailto:yixuelei@tencent.com>>, Yuhang Jia <tonyjia@tencent.com<mailto:tonyjia@tencent.com>>, Yunbo Han <yunbohan@tencent.com<mailto:yunbohan@tencent.com>>, Yunfei Zhang <yanniszhang@tencent.com<mailto:yanniszhang@tencent.com>>



A new version of I-D, draft-huang-alto-mowie-for-network-aware-app-04.txt
has been successfully submitted by Y. Richard Yang and posted to the
IETF repository.

Name:           draft-huang-alto-mowie-for-network-aware-app
Revision:       04
Title:          MoWIE for Network Aware Applications
Document date:  2022-07-11
Group:          Individual Submission
Pages:          25
URL:            https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-huang-alto-mowie-for-network-aware-app-04.txt
Status:         https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-huang-alto-mowie-for-network-aware-app/
Htmlized:       https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-huang-alto-mowie-for-network-aware-app
Diff:           https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-huang-alto-mowie-for-network-aware-app-04

Abstract:
   With the quick deployment of 5G networks in the world, cloud-based
   interactive applications (services) such as cloud gaming have gained
   substantial attention and are regarded as potential killer
   applications.  To ensure users' quality of experience (QoE), a cloud
   interactive service may require not only high bandwidth (e.g., high-
   resolution media transmission) but also low delay (e.g., low latency
   and low lagging).  However, the bandwidth and delay experienced by a
   mobile and wireless user can be dynamic, as a function of many
   factors, and unhandled changes can substantially compromise the
   user's QoE.  In this document, we investigate network-aware
   applications (NAA), which realize cloud based interactive services
   with improved QoE, by efficient utilization of a solution named
   Mobile and Wireless Information Exposure (MoWIE).  In particular,
   this document demonstrates, through realistic evaluations, that
   mobile network information such as MCS (Modulation and Coding Scheme)
   can effectively expose the dynamicity of the underlying network and
   can be made available to applications through MoWIE; using such
   information, the applications can then adapt key control knobs such
   as media codec scheme, encapsulation, and application layer
   processing to minimize QoE deduction.  Based on the evaluations, we
   discuss how the MoWIE features can define extensions of the ALTO
   protocol, to expose more lower-layer and finer grain network
   dynamics.




The IETF Secretariat

--
Richard
--
Richard

_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________



Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc

pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler

a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,

Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci.



This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged information that may be protected by law;

they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.

If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and delete this message and its attachments.

As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been modified, changed or falsified.

Thank you.
--
Richard
_______________________________________________
alto mailing list
alto@ietf.org<mailto:alto@ietf.org>
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/alto

_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc
pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler
a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,
Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci.

This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged information that may be protected by law;
they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.
If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and delete this message and its attachments.
As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been modified, changed or falsified.
Thank you.