Re: [alto] Bringing operation automation cases to the list Thu, 11 March 2021 12:53 UTC

Return-Path: <>
Received: from localhost (localhost []) by (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E7EC3A0883 for <>; Thu, 11 Mar 2021 04:53:16 -0800 (PST)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.918
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.918 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Received: from ([]) by localhost ( []) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NBk7KYJn55jt for <>; Thu, 11 Mar 2021 04:53:11 -0800 (PST)
Received: from ( []) by (Postfix) with SMTP id 1DCE03A086E for <>; Thu, 11 Mar 2021 04:53:10 -0800 (PST)
Received: by ajax-webmail-app1 (Coremail) ; Thu, 11 Mar 2021 20:53:02 +0800 (GMT+08:00)
X-Originating-IP: []
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2021 20:53:02 +0800
X-CM-HeaderCharset: UTF-8
To: Qin Wu <>
Cc: Jensen Zhang <>, "" <>
X-Priority: 3
X-Mailer: Coremail Webmail Server Version XT5.0.13 build 20210104(ab8c30b6) Copyright (c) 2002-2021 mail
In-Reply-To: <>
References: <>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_11799_639233640.1615467182692"
MIME-Version: 1.0
Message-ID: <>
X-Coremail-Locale: en_US
X-CM-TRANSID: 4wAACgCXN2GuEkpg5cwIAA--.1304W
X-CM-SenderInfo: 5ndlwt3r6vu3oohg3hdfq/1tbiAQQRB138kk0nbgABsl
X-Coremail-Antispam: 1Ur529EdanIXcx71UUUUU7IcSsGvfJ3iIAIbVAYjsxI4VWxJw CS07vEb4IE77IF4wCS07vE1I0E4x80FVAKz4kxMIAIbVAFxVCaYxvI4VCIwcAKzIAtYxBI daVFxhVjvjDU=
Archived-At: <>
Subject: Re: [alto] Bringing operation automation cases to the list
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: "Application-Layer Traffic Optimization \(alto\) WG mailing list" <>
List-Unsubscribe: <>, <>
List-Archive: <>
List-Post: <>
List-Help: <>
List-Subscribe: <>, <>
X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2021 12:53:17 -0000

Hi all,

Below are some thoughts on the overlay/underlay integration discussion. Please see details inline.


-----Original Messages-----
From:"Qin Wu" <>
Sent Time:2021-03-11 15:55:31 (Thursday)
To: "Jensen Zhang" <>
Cc: "" <>
Subject: Re: [alto] Bringing operation automation cases to the list

Hi, Jensen:

发件人: Jensen Zhang []
发送时间: 2021年3月11日 15:39
收件人: Qin Wu <>
主题: Re: [alto] Bringing operation automation cases to the list


Hi all,


Please see my comments inline.



On Thu, Mar 11, 2021 at 2:38 PM Qin Wu <> wrote:

Hi, Richard:

发件人: alto [] 代表 Y. Richard Yang
发送时间: 2021年3月11日 12:52
主题: Re: [alto] Bringing operation automation cases to the list


Hi Luis,


Good summary. Please see below.


On Wed, Mar 10, 2021 at 5:18 PM LUIS MIGUEL CONTRERAS MURILLO <> wrote:

Hi all,


Apologies for the time taking to post the operation automation cases to the list.


As part of the re-charter discussion, four use cases will be considered for supporting the proposal in which respect to ALTO extensions for operation automation.


Case 1. Extensions to RFC 7971 leveraging on previous protocol extensions (e.g., cost calendar, path vector) that can make necessary new architectural and deployment considerations


RFC7971 is valuable and hence an update to include the effects of protocol extensions is highly valuable. I understand that cost calendar and path vector are examples, and other extensions such as SSE can be included and we want to make sure to do a relatively comprehensive update.

[Qin]: Another limitation of RC7971 is to lack multi-domain support. Therefore I feel multi-domain support should be also documented for this item to address limitation of ALTO deployment in RFC7971.


Yes, multi-domain support can be also considered. But we need to clarify the limitation of existing deployment considerations for multiple-domain cases in RFC7971 (e.g., cascaded servers). To compare with the well-specified extensions like cost calendar, path vector, and SSE, one concern is that the multi-domain support may involve new extensions which have not been well specified yet.


[Qin]: Good point, this is chicken-egg problem.:-)

Case 2. Usage of ALTO for combined compute and network selection (e.g., for optimal edge computing service placement).


Does Case 2 belong to general protocol extension or operation automation?

[Qin]:I think operation automation is also required  in this case, i.e., how network information and compute information are aggregated. One thing I am not sure is whether

Whether path vector has already supported compute information? Maybe author can clarify.


The path vector extension itself doesn't support compute information. I assume you are talking about the entity property map. I think we can leverage the entity property map to expose the compute information by defining new entity domains and property types systematically (like what the performance cost metrics document does). But we need to dig into real use cases to see if anything is missing.


But beyond the protocol extension, I'm also interested in how to collect those compute information from an operator's view. It will also affect the data model work.

[Qin]: IETF Dyncast side meeting last night investigate what metric should be defined, how frequent the update is, I think probably also related to this issue. I think ALTO can provide a solution for compute information exposure if we look for centralized solution.


Case 3. Extensions to ALTO for acting as aggregator of information from different sources (e.g., TEDB, LSP DB, etc)


Case 3 is definitely a good use case supporting operation automation.


Case 4. Overlay / underlay integration supported by ALTO (e.g., CDN).

Overlay/underlay integration can have many aspects. So the goal is to focus on the operation automation aspect? One possibility is to define operation automation broadly, including operation automation of not only ALTO but the overall system (i.e., the integrated overlay/underlay). If this is the case, we may want to specify the scope well.

[Qin]: Agree, I think this case describe ALTO interface as Network as a service interface, allow the underlay expose capability and status to the overlay, So overlay can know how to optimize the service delivery. This case looks very interesting.


I think not just the underlay can expose info to the overlay, the overlay can also express its fine-grained demand and subscribe info to the underlay. It may have some overlaps with the pub/sub item. We may need more clarification about the integration solution.

[KAI] When Jensen said "overlaps with the pub/sub item", my understanding is that the integration is a closed-loop such that the overlay may alter its demands/subscriptions based on ALTO information received from the underlay, and the underlay also somehow subscribes to those demands and may return different information accordingly.

[KAI] My first reaction is "Isn't this how pub/sub works in ALTO?" if demands simply represent subscriptions from an ALTO client. Or maybe the demands can be something that is not defined in the current ALTO documents/extensions? In that case, I think it would be helpful to first clarify the integration problem here: what capabilitybeyond existing ALTO extensions is essential to enable such kind of integration?

[KAI] I do see that the overlay/underlay integration is closely related to operation automation and data model, especially in the case where both underlay (ALTO server) and overlay (ALTO client) belong to the same administrative domain.

And we should also better clarify the goal (to deliver either an experience document or a standard document).

[Qin]: I assume you are asking whether we should document this item as BCP or standard track, or experimental, I am not worried about its overlapping with pub sub item, BCP can document the best practice, which is not necessary to introduce any protocol extension.

[KAI] I agree that a document is essential.




Looking forward to a great discussion on Friday.




Any comment, suggestion or indication is more than welcome.







Luis M. Contreras


Technology and Planning

Transport, IP and Interconnection Networks

Telefónica I+D / Global CTIO unit / Telefónica


Distrito Telefónica, Edificio Sur 3, Planta 3

28050 Madrid

España / Spain


Skype (Lync): +34 91 312 9084

Mobile: +34 680 947 650




Este mensaje y sus adjuntos se dirigen exclusivamente a su destinatario, puede contener información privilegiada o confidencial y es para uso exclusivo de la persona o entidad de destino. Si no es usted. el destinatario indicado, queda notificado de que la lectura, utilización, divulgación y/o copia sin autorización puede estar prohibida en virtud de la legislación vigente. Si ha recibido este mensaje por error, le rogamos que nos lo comunique inmediatamente por esta misma vía y proceda a su destrucción.

The information contained in this transmission is privileged and confidential information intended only for the use of the individual or entity named above. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this transmission in error, do not read it. Please immediately reply to the sender that you have received this communication in error and then delete it.

Esta mensagem e seus anexos se dirigem exclusivamente ao seu destinatário, pode conter informação privilegiada ou confidencial e é para uso exclusivo da pessoa ou entidade de destino. Se não é vossa senhoria o destinatário indicado, fica notificado de que a leitura, utilização, divulgação e/ou cópia sem autorização pode estar proibida em virtude da legislação vigente. Se recebeu esta mensagem por erro, rogamos-lhe que nos o comunique imediatamente por esta mesma via e proceda a sua destruição

alto mailing list





| Y. Richard Yang <>   |

| Professor of Computer Science       |

|        |


alto mailing list