Re: [alto] Topic B - maintenance of ALTO protocol // RE: June 20, 2023 meeting minutes and discussion working links

Danny Lachos <dlachos@benocs.com> Wed, 05 July 2023 07:59 UTC

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To: LUIS MIGUEL CONTRERAS MURILLO <luismiguel.contrerasmurillo@telefonica.com>, "Y. Richard Yang" <yry@cs.yale.edu>, IETF ALTO <alto@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [alto] Topic B - maintenance of ALTO protocol // RE: June 20, 2023 meeting minutes and discussion working links
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Hi Luis,
Thanks for starting this thread

See a quick comment below:

> 1/ extension of ALTO to consider operational simplicity. Here fits the 
> proposal of introducing BGP communities in ALTO. The rationale is that 
> operators use BGP communities quite often as mechanism for applying 
> policies and determining certain behaviors on the IP addresses grouped 
> in the form of communities. This seems quite useful as well at the 
> time of exposing associated information (metrics, topology, etc) as 
> enabled by ALTO. An initial draft can be found 
> here:https://github.com/luismcontreras/alto-bgp-communities
>
> The plan is to generate version -01 for IETF 117. 
Regarding the use of BGP information (including BGP communities), I was 
wondering how to process this data. Should it be considered an 
aggregation process?
This is because tons of data will eventually be received, and in this 
case, the BGP routing information could be aggregated into subnet 
prefixes grouped by their attributes (Communities, BGP nextHop, etc.).
This process will massively compress the BGP data and then this 
re-structured and aggregated data could be used to generate, for 
instance, ALTO network maps based on BGP-Communities.

Make sense?

On 26.06.23 23:13, LUIS MIGUEL CONTRERAS MURILLO wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>
> Related to Topic B on maintenance of ALTO, as a way of summary of what 
> has been discussed during the last weeks, we could have two major 
> sub-topics:
>
> 1/ extension of ALTO to consider operational simplicity. Here fits the 
> proposal of introducing BGP communities in ALTO. The rationale is that 
> operators use BGP communities quite often as mechanism for applying 
> policies and determining certain behaviors on the IP addresses grouped 
> in the form of communities. This seems quite useful as well at the 
> time of exposing associated information (metrics, topology, etc) as 
> enabled by ALTO. An initial draft can be found 
> here:https://github.com/luismcontreras/alto-bgp-communities
>
> The plan is to generate version -01 for IETF 117.
>
> 2/ security aspects of ALTO. This has been discussed in both one of 
> the interim meetings (see 
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/interim-2023-alto-05/materials/slides-interim-2023-alto-05-sessa-security-aspects-regarding-alto-luis-00) 
> and one ad-hoc discussion meeting 
> (https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/alto/HnhO5H5xy4hBGtfm3JI7-K9mq3Y/). 
> The rationale for this activity is to improve the security around the 
> deployment and operation of ALTO in production networks. As commented 
> during the interim, there are a number of security issues documented 
> so far, like:
>
>   * A high-level discussion of security issues in the ALTO problem
>     statement [RFC5693]
>   * Unwanted information disclosure risks, as well as specific
>     security-related requirements in the ALTO requirements document
>     [RFC6708].
>   * Issues related ALTO server discovery in [RFC7286]
>   * Identified cases for ALTO deployments in [RFC7971]
>   * Security considerations in the remaining RFCs
>
> However, new security concerns emerge from deployments, such as:
>
>   * Obfuscation of PIDs, and the handling of them in scenarios with
>     multiple ALTO clients
>   * Mechanisms for isolation of the ALTO server from direct client
>     interaction
>   * Secure retrieval of information from external components (e.g.,
>     probes, etc)
>   * etc
>
> A potential first step could be to document these new security 
> considerations and then concentrate on those not solved representing 
> relevant threats in ALTO operation.
>
> There could be other relevant topics related to the maintenance of 
> ALTO part from the two commented above.
>
> Any further ideas on this respect?
>
> Of course for those interested on the topics above, please comment.
>
> Thanks in advance
>
> Best regards
>
> Luis
>
> *De:* alto <alto-bounces@ietf.org> *En nombre de * Y. Richard Yang
> *Enviado el:* miércoles, 21 de junio de 2023 1:47
> *Para:* IETF ALTO <alto@ietf.org>
> *Asunto:* [alto] June 20, 2023 meeting minutes and discussion working 
> links
>
> Hi all,
>
> As suggested by Ayoub, Jordi and others during the weekly meeting 
> today, starting from today, the note taker will not only update the 
> meeting minutes page 
> (https://github.com/ietf-wg-alto/wg-materials/blob/main/meetings-ietf-alto/ietf-alto-2023.md), 
> but also provide a text summary and comments, if appropriate, on the 
> meeting. So below are my quick comments and the full meeting minutes 
> are below; the archive is at the link above.
>
> Regarding comments, the most important item that I, as a note taker, 
> take away is the wonderful discussion about how to organize future 
> work discussions. In particular, the participants divided the 
> potential work into 4 areas, and created 4 github issues. We also 
> created a common Google doc to allow systematic write up. The links to 
> them are below.
>
> In particular, the four areas and their coordinators are:
>
> - A: Integration of data sources and their exposures; coordinator: 
> Jordi, Luis and Kai
>
> - B: Maintenance of ALTO protocol; coordinator: Luis, Richard
>
> - C: Security and trust; coordinators: Ayoub, Junichi, Motoyoshi
>
> - D: New architectural extensions; coordinators: Roland and Sabine
>
>
> We sure can adjust the coordinators. So so, please let me know, and we 
> can adjust the page. The plan is that the coordinators will closely 
> with the chairs (Qin and Med) to make concrete progress. The 
> coordinators will kick off the discussions.
>
> Richard as note taker on June 20, 2023
>
> ==== Meeting Minutes Text ====
>
> *IETF, ALTO Meeting: June 20, 2023*
>
> *Agenda:*
>
>   * Transport and OAM documents
>
>       o Transport:
>         https://github.com/ietf-wg-alto/draft-ietf-alto-new-transport/issues
>
>   * OAM: https://github.com/ietf-wg-alto/draft-ietf-alto-oam-yang/issues
>   * ALTO Future Work:
>     https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/alto/uIFD6Dhikfu4J4PYcpJTbsiXbnE/
>     https://github.com/ietf-wg-alto/wg-materials/blob/main/FutureALTO/alto-direction-of-work.md
>   * Preps for IETF 117:
>
>       o Drafts and presentations that the ALTO group plans to work on
>       o Agenda
>
>   * New revision of Green Networking Metrics draft in opsawg:
>     https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-cx-opsawg-green-metrics/
>
> *Minutes*
>
> *Note taker: Richard
>
>   * Charter documents: transport and OAM updates
>
>       o OAM: Jensen and Med had a discussion on the draft and submit
>         the revision to IESG. The document is now waiting for AD review.
>       o Transport: Richard sent a note to Martin Thompson, to provide
>         the justification on introducing server push using PUSH
>         PROMISE. It includes two basic reasonings: lower load, and the
>         feature is optional; Kai updated that Med sent two pull
>         requests and sent the latest version for AD review, and wait
>         for updates.
>
>   * Updates on future work on ALTO
>
>       o Overview: Jordi started with an update on the planning: Please
>         follow the ongoing conversation on the WG mailing list
>         initiated by Sabine, engaged by Jordi and Luis; the WG
>         welcomes conversations by all; please socialize the ideas;
>         leadership is important and please take ownership; this WG
>         meets each week, and we do not know any other IETF WG that
>         meets each week, but because we meet each week, we do not use
>         the mailing list, which may appear to be inactive by those not
>         attending the weekly meeting.
>       o Individual topics:
>
>           + Jordi summarized that from the mailing list, item 3
>             appears to be the most preferred; please do discussions,
>             propose a charter item and then write documents; The goal
>             is to go to 117 and should be prepared.
>           + Richard commented that one of his focus points will be on
>             data sources, which can be more informational than
>             standard. Luis advised that there can be two types of
>             approaches: bottom-up (individuals propose ideas), and
>             top-down (chairs/AD guidance).
>           + Luis suggests that we should take a look at
>             chair-mentioned items such as BGP communities, and
>             security; mid-term: such as data sources, please go to the
>             mailing list.
>
>   * Work organization: Meeting notes work plan: Ayoub gave the
>     suggestion that note taker shares the note to the mailing list,
>     some kind of annotated meeting minutes. Roland clarified that the
>     sharing notes can be double sent, or summary/highlights, or up to
>     note taker. Organizing discussions: Luis/Jordi: email as record,
>     GitHub tickets to organize; Jordi creates 4 tickets, and puts
>     links to doc.
>   * Issues, leads, and working documents:
>
>       o Topic A:
>
>           + GitHub issue: #48
>             <https://github.com/ietf-wg-alto/wg-materials/issues/48>
>           + Topic coordinator: Jordi, Kai
>
>       o Topic B:
>
>           + GitHub: #49
>             <https://github.com/ietf-wg-alto/wg-materials/issues/49>
>           + Topic coordinator: Roland, Sabine
>
>       o Topic C:
>
>           + GitHub: #50
>             <https://github.com/ietf-wg-alto/wg-materials/issues/50>
>           + Topic coordinator: Ayoub, Junichi, Motoyoshi
>
>       o Topic D:
>
>           + GitHub: #51
>             <https://github.com/ietf-wg-alto/wg-materials/issues/51>
>           + Coordinator: Luis, Jordi
>
>       o Discussion Google doc:
>
>           + https://docs.google.com/document/d/1rpziU7NZEE8f84XkJSjMhEIHUA5G7rXkGB5c_7UFxUY/edit?usp=sharing
>
>       o Goals: Enabling conversations and concrete documents (compute,
>         edge service, etc), need to focus; real good way to make
>         progress is internet-draft (ID) as ground truth, from dynamic
>         to stable, with focus on writing drafts for concrete results).
>
>
> -- 
>
> -- 
>
>  =====================================
>
> | Y. Richard Yang <yry@cs.yale.edu>   |
>
> | Professor of Computer Science       |
>
> | http://www.cs.yale.edu/~yry/        |
>
>  =====================================
>
>
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