Re: [Anima] Rtgdir last call review of draft-ietf-anima-autonomic-control-plane-24

"Joel M. Halpern" <> Fri, 10 April 2020 04:50 UTC

Return-Path: <>
Received: from localhost (localhost []) by (Postfix) with ESMTP id C0FEF3A1B62; Thu, 9 Apr 2020 21:50:15 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.12
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.12 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key)
Received: from ([]) by localhost ( []) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PnvfwXkf_S1r; Thu, 9 Apr 2020 21:50:13 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from ( []) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 77BC23A1B61; Thu, 9 Apr 2020 21:50:13 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from localhost (localhost []) by (Postfix) with ESMTP id 48z5D51sKpz1ny1n; Thu, 9 Apr 2020 21:50:13 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;; s=2.tigertech; t=1586494213; bh=Oqyln29nyL8TzCmcA2qw4LWV0ozoOsuTswOIfWyZvGo=; h=Subject:To:Cc:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=Jb+6/Gzqse66aTGcYtA3Ep0iISpyk8jyq3DdNfQzBfCkuf/8NWHiLuMmJVaQvPWbZ 4Lika2IXkJDdRtiSgWspvkrMwD9+/ys4uNlv7UzBUfcCi2kI6W6eVoUJNcMnlHeeOu 0aQ68j1L4Fj+oSQayFHQ6krCzqVS+tBbtA2jchbo=
X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at
Received: from [] ( []) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 48z5D43ZQYz1ny1f; Thu, 9 Apr 2020 21:50:12 -0700 (PDT)
To: Brian E Carpenter <>,
References: <> <>
From: "Joel M. Halpern" <>
Message-ID: <>
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2020 00:50:11 -0400
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.6.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: <>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
Content-Language: en-US
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Archived-At: <>
Subject: Re: [Anima] Rtgdir last call review of draft-ietf-anima-autonomic-control-plane-24
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach <>
List-Unsubscribe: <>, <>
List-Archive: <>
List-Post: <>
List-Help: <>
List-Subscribe: <>, <>
X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2020 04:50:16 -0000

Thanks Brian.  Given the amount of text below, I am going to top-post.

On the Zone IDs, personally, I would remove all of the text about 
non-zero ZoneIDs, and replace it with a simple statement that it is 
expected to be used for future work on aggregatable addressing to 
improve scaling.

On Loopback, I understand your frustration with the lack of a good 
definition.  Given that IPv6 addressing architecture constraints, you 
need some sort of interface.  In practice, the way loopbacks are used 
seems to match the need.  So I do not object to the usage.  just to the 
definition.  It would also be acceptable to simply craft a different 
term and clearly define it if the usage is sufficiently different from 
existing practice.

On the final minor comment, it was specifically about the section on L2 
devices.  Maybe something special is needed for the special case of a 
shared network that is also a border network.  But that seems very rare. 
  And getting the L2 switch to do the right packet forwarding for the 
hybrid case seems an invitation to trouble.


On 4/10/2020 12:30 AM, Brian E Carpenter wrote:
> Hi Joel,
> What a great review. I have comments on both your major comments, and an
> important comment near the bottom of your minor comments.
> On 10-Apr-20 14:16, Joel Halpern via Datatracker wrote:
>> Reviewer: Joel Halpern
>> Review result: Not Ready
> ...> Summary:
>>      I have two major concern about this document that I think should be
>>      resolved before publication.  The are also a number of minor items that
>>      warrant attention.
>> Comments:
>> While quite long, the draft is significantly improved from earlier versions.
>> It does provide significant explanation of its design choices, which is helpful
>> and appreciated.  Sometimes this seems to end up more as marketing or promotion
>> instead of explanation, but this is mostly harmless.
>> In particular, I would like to thank the authors and editors for the addition
>> of section 9.3 and its careful discussion of the many issues there.
>> Major Issues:
>>      Section on the use of Zone-IDs seems, from the material in A.10.1,
>>      to be dependent upon either configuration (which ACP is supposed to avoid)
>>      or completely unspecified magic.  Having an addressing and routing scheme
>>      standardized that is impossible to use seems at variance with appropriate
>>      practice.  It would be fine to say that provision is made for non-zero
>>      Zone-IDs in the hope that future work can find ways to scale further using
>>      this.  But pretending it is well-defined, but not actually defining it,
>>      seems unacceptable.
> Interesting. I've always read this text (and the Appendix text) to mean
> that Zone-IDs are indeed reserved for future work, but that a few of
> their basic properties are defined. Are you suggesting to delete all
> that, or to add a clear statement that they are currently not fully
> defined and should not be implemented?
>>      Section on loopback interface is factually wrong.  It conflates
>>      one particular form of loopback interface with the definition of loopback
>>      interfaces.  This also leads to the error in the definition section (see
>>      minor comment below).  (Loopback Interfaces were used long before RFC 4291,
>>      and on routers were often used for external communication.  This was itself
>>      a repurposing of the original loopback interface,, which was
>>      indeed for internal use.)
> This text is probably my fault, since back in 2015 I was bugging the authors
> about VRF terminology and loopback in particular. I searched for and
> failed to find a generic definition of "loopback" and I also wrote this:
>>>> Routing people and Linux hackers use "loopback interface" as a term of art. I
>>>> still think you are wrong, and the restriction you want to impose is that only
>>>> *secure virtual* interfaces of autonomic nodes carry a routable address.
>>>> Attaching the addresses to a loopback interface is an implementation
>>>> mechanism.
> and in 2017 I wrote this (sorry, but I can't provide a TL;DR version):
>>>> I'm still not 100% happy with that but 'loopback' is a term of art
>>>> in our business. According to RFC 4291, the loopback interface is
>>>>>>      a virtual interface (typically called the "loopback
>>>>>>      interface") to an imaginary link that goes nowhere.
>>>> so basically it is indeed where you can hang an address that does
>>>> not belong to any specific physical or virtual interface. I find it
>>>> slightly troubling that this important concept is, as far as I can
>>>> tell, not defined very well anywhere. I had to break out my copy
>>>> of Stevens's "TCP/IP Illustrated" to get some clarity.
>>>> So I don't think ACP nodes are different, actually. This is just
>>>> an undocumented common practice, as are VRFs.
>>>> The earliest reference I've found to "loopback interface" is in
>>>> RFC 1812, which simply assumes that the reader knows what it means.
>>>> There's some reasonably helpful discussion in RFC 4007, and RFC 6724
>>>> says:
>>>>>>    Implementations that wish to support the use of global source
>>>>>>    addresses assigned to a loopback interface MUST behave as if the
>>>>>>    loopback interface originates and forwards the packet.
>>>> RFC 7404 shows the extent to which hanging an address on the loopback
>>>> interface is common practice in router operations. (There's also a
>>>> brief mention of this in RFC 7010, which I had completely forgotten
>>>> despite being a co-author.)
> Frankly I'm still a bit unhappy about using the term "loopback interface"
> because it doesn't seem to me to be relevant to describing external
> behaviour of a node, and it is very much an implementation artefact
> that seems to mean slightly different things to different people.
>> Minor Issues:
>>     It seems distinctly unfortunate that the definition for Data Plane in
>>     section 2 explicitly states that this definition is different from that used
>>     in other work, including other routing work.  This seems a recipe for both
>>     confusion and mis-communication among technologists.
>>     In the definition of in-band management in section 2, please remove the
>>     commentary text on putative fragility.   (I actually agree it has some
>>     fragility.  The discussion does not belong here.  This is a definition.)
>>     The promotional material may be warranted, if jarring, in other parts of the
>>     documents.  Not in the definitions please.
>>      The definition of a loopback interface in section 2 is wrong.  It claims
>>      that loopbacks transmit no external traffic.   They send and receive lots
>>      of external traffic.  They merely do so by forwarding the traffic
>>      internally to other interfaces.  The traffic is external.  The particular
>>      step of the transmission, if implemented naively, is internal.
>>      If we are going to define ACP as a virtual out of band network, I would
>>      suggest separating the terms into two definitions.  One for true out  of
>>      band networks (distinct physical links, switches, and ports), and then a
>>      definition for virtual out of band network which describes the ACP
>>      approximation which creates independence from configuration, but not
>>      independence from the physical links.
>>      Section 5, bullet 2, talks about a policy as to which peers ACP
>>      communication should be established.  It would be helpful if this gave a
>>      reference or indication as to where such policies would come from.  Given
>>      the emphasis on zero touch, I presume they are not configured on the node?
>>      (This issues was in my review of -13.)
>>      Bullet 4 of section 6.1.3 on checking certificates against the CRL / OCSP
>>      would seem to be better reworded.  I believe the intended requirements i
>>      that IF there is ACP connectivity to the CRL / OCSP source, then it should
>>      be verified.  But that absence of such connectivity should not prevent
>>      association formation.  (As, if I have read it wright, otherwise we could
>>      deadlock the startup process.)
>>      In the example in section 6.5 on Channel selection, in steps 7:C1 and
>>      11:C2, Node 1 concludes that it is Bob.  However, in steps 12 and 13, the
>>      text refers to Node1 (Alice).  This seems inconsistent.
>>      Section 6.7.1 makes an assertion about the lack of need for MTI of security
>>      mechanisms.  The earlier explanation was well done and seems sound.  This
>>      shorter one seems wrong, since without MTI there is no good way to know
>>      what ones neighbors may implement.  I suggest simply removing this text and
>>      replacing it with a backwards reference to the earlier description.  (The
>>      rest of the section is useful and clear.)
>>      In 6.10.3,  ACP Zone Addressing Sub-Scheme, the text claims that when zone
>>      IDs of 0 are used, the addresses are identifiers, and when non-zero IDs
>>      aere used, they are locators.  Since in either case the addresses are used
>>      for packet forwarding, and the addressing information is propagated in the
>>      routing protocol (RPL), this seems to be a misuse of the locator /
>>      identifier distinction.  And a misuse for no purpose as the distinction is
>>      not relevant to the document.  (This odd use of "identifier continues in
>>      section  Identifier is not a synonym of "flat".  Just say "flat".)
>>      The assertion about looping packets in the later portion of is
>>      over-stated.  There are other routing protocols that avoid looping-till-ttl
>>      without changing the data plane header.  I suggest removing the gratuitous
>>      comparison with other routing protocols.
>> refers to the ACP addresses as node addresses.  Technically, the
>>      IPv6 architecture requires that all addresses are associated with
>>      interfaces rather than nodes.  I would prefer that this draft not
>>      needlessly claim to violate that.
>>      Section 7.2 (L2 DULL GRASP) seems to be doing something quite useful.  I
>>      think I see how it would work.  The need for some configuration on some
>>      switches seems inevitable and acceptable.   I think there is one corner
>>      case that should be avoided, as it seems likely to create significant
>>      complexity for little or no benefit.  It seems to me that a switch that is
>>      capable of participating in the ACP should either participate in the ACP on
>>      all its physical ports, or should not participate in the ACP at all.  I
>>      would not be surprised if that was the WG intent.  But I could not find the
>>      text that says this.  (Apologies if it is there and I missed it.)
> No. A node which is at the edge of the ACP will by definition have at
> least one interface that is in the ACP, and at least one interface that
> is not in the ACP. I can't see any way to avoid that.
> What you say definitely applies to L2 links: they must be either inside
> or outside. (But even that gets complicated if running the ACP over a VLAN.
> Then the statement becomes: each VLAN must be either inside or outside.)
> Hmm. There's a draft on this topic in the RFC queue, and I am quite
> sure that ANIMA needs to start new work on the domain membership and
> boundary issue.
> Regards,
>       Brian
>>      Section 9 starts by saying it is informational.  But the first paragraph
>>      says that some of the content is "necessary" for correct operation.  Thus,
>>      it seems that some of the content is normative?   (I am not sure, but I
>>      think the "necessary" material relates to what is needed to be a registrar?)
>> Nits:
>>      The second and third paragraphs of section on RPL start with
>>      duplicated text, and then go on to say different (complementary) things.
>>      There is no need for the repetition.
>>      The rank factor in of 100 megabits as the boundary seems a fairly
>>      arbitrary choice.  It may be that an arbitrary choice was needed.  Could
>>      something be said?  In particular, if someone looks at this 5 years from
>>      now, it may seem quite confusing.
>> _______________________________________________
>> Anima mailing list