Re: [Anima] What is intent ?
Sheng Jiang <jiangsheng@huawei.com> Wed, 26 July 2017 10:59 UTC
Return-Path: <jiangsheng@huawei.com>
X-Original-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5176B131FE9; Wed, 26 Jul 2017 03:59:15 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -4.222
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.222 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5l-j1OnTT4LH; Wed, 26 Jul 2017 03:59:13 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 634EA131FE8; Wed, 26 Jul 2017 03:59:12 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml701-cah.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg02-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id DLI35353; Wed, 26 Jul 2017 10:59:10 +0000 (GMT)
Received: from NKGEML413-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.98.56.74) by lhreml701-cah.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.42) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.301.0; Wed, 26 Jul 2017 11:58:11 +0100
Received: from NKGEML515-MBX.china.huawei.com ([fe80::a54a:89d2:c471:ff]) by NKGEML413-HUB.china.huawei.com ([10.98.56.74]) with mapi id 14.03.0235.001; Wed, 26 Jul 2017 18:58:06 +0800
From: Sheng Jiang <jiangsheng@huawei.com>
To: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>, Toerless Eckert <tte@cs.fau.de>, "anima@ietf.org" <anima@ietf.org>, Jéferson Campos Nobre <jcnobre@inf.ufrgs.br>
CC: "draft-du-anima-an-intent.authors@ietf.org" <draft-du-anima-an-intent.authors@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Anima] What is intent ?
Thread-Index: AQHTBYWIrt9EjncNH0q7YmIuWDuhaaJko6QAgACeH7A=
Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2017 10:58:06 +0000
Message-ID: <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B927CE3A55E@NKGEML515-MBX.china.huawei.com>
References: <20170725203454.GA7884@faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <f37be818-9b5e-2361-f955-7937eee9f964@gmail.com>
In-Reply-To: <f37be818-9b5e-2361-f955-7937eee9f964@gmail.com>
Accept-Language: en-GB, zh-CN, en-US
Content-Language: zh-CN
X-MS-Has-Attach:
X-MS-TNEF-Correlator:
x-originating-ip: [10.111.185.119]
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected
X-Mirapoint-Virus-RAPID-Raw: score=unknown(0), refid=str=0001.0A020205.597875FE.020C, ss=1, re=0.000, recu=0.000, reip=0.000, cl=1, cld=1, fgs=0, ip=0.0.0.0, so=2013-06-18 04:22:30, dmn=2013-03-21 17:37:32
X-Mirapoint-Loop-Id: 7acec8c1cda2de4e088df28a45357277
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/anima/o3CnhfWI1aiCCSE6y_Wmda3YPAI>
Subject: Re: [Anima] What is intent ?
X-BeenThere: anima@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22
Precedence: list
List-Id: Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach <anima.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/anima>, <mailto:anima-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/anima/>
List-Post: <mailto:anima@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:anima-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima>, <mailto:anima-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2017 10:59:15 -0000
Hi, Toerless, Brian & Jeferson, Please see my replies in line with quotas from you. Toerless> Other folks in the IETF clearly think that a service definition is NOT intent, but > intent can only be some yet unclear high level policy. If thats the prevailing > opinion/wisdom in the IETF, then IMHO we need to be more explicit about the > fact that Intent is not the only input into the network but that there is also > other input. Such as services. And anything else that people do not want to call > Intent. I prefer such distinguish definitions. Intent itself does not have a clear definition. It does not a clear role in Autonomic network either. This word has been abused a lot. If we cannot reach consensus on its semantics. It may be wise to give up it and choose more precise terminologies. Toerless>I think that draft-du-anima-an-intent would equally > apply to all information we would want to distribute into an autonomic > network. Jeferson>I believe this could be addressed in draft-du-anima-an-intent. As a co-author of this draft, I also think we have a very good base already. However, we may need to rename the document in order to avoid the too-hot term "intent". Brian>we could spend another 6 months discussing how to know Intent when we see it. But I would prefer that to happen in NMRG. Jeferson>I agree with Brian, the intent "philosophical" discussion fits better the NMRG. This suggestion is actually very pragmatic. Let's focus on these concrete and generic solutions first. Regards, Sheng > -----Original Message----- > From: Anima [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Brian E Carpenter > Sent: Wednesday, July 26, 2017 7:05 AM > To: Toerless Eckert; anima@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Anima] What is intent ? > > Distribution trimmed to Anima: > > Whenever I've asked "Is X Intent?", I've usually been told "No" except for cases > where X is too abstract to interpret algorithmically. > > But in practice, I believe that many ASAs will need instructions from the NOC to > modify their default behaviour. I don't care what we call those instructions; for > the prefix management use case we just called them "parameters". > > So maybe Anima should focus on parameter distribution more than on Intent. I > think that's the point of draft-liu-anima-grasp-distribution. > A fairly simple change to the wording of draft-du-anima-an-intent would adapt > it to generic parameter distribution. > > Converting abstract Intent to concrete parameters can be completely separate > from this, and could well be a centralised operation. > > Or we could spend another 6 months discussing how to know Intent when we > see it. But I would prefer that to happen in NMRG. > > Regards > Brian > > On 26/07/2017 08:34, Toerless Eckert wrote: > > I have an autonomic network, and i want for another customer another > > L3VPN service instance in it. How would i tell the network that i > > want this ? Via intent or via something else ? > > > > If it is something else, what is it ? I do not see any other > > information flow from operator to network beside intent in RFC7575 or > draft-ietf-anima-reference-model. > > Maybe i am missing something. > > > > If it is intent, how would it look like ? Could it simply be a > > definition of an L3VPN service instance in the model defined in rfc8049 ? If not, > why not ? > > > > IMHO: Intent in ANIMA includes service definitions such as what > > rfc8049 is, except that we would reserve the right to eliminate all > > parameters of rfc8049 for which we figure out autonomic ways to > > determine them. Which alas seems to be quite difficult for most parameters. > > > > Other folks in the IETF clearly think that a service definition is NOT > > intent, but intent can only be some yet unclear high level policy. If > > thats the prevailing opinion/wisdom in the IETF, then IMHO we need to > > be more explicit about the fact that Intent is not the only input into > > the network but that there is also other input. Such as services. And > > anything else that people do not want to call Intent. > > > > Lets assume service and other necessary data operator->network should > > not be called intent. But lets say the superset of intent + services + > > everything else is called eg: "information". I think that > > draft-du-anima-an-intent would equally apply to all information we > > would want to distribute into an autonomic network. > > > > Cheers > > Toerless > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Anima mailing list > > Anima@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima > > > > _______________________________________________ > Anima mailing list > Anima@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
- [Anima] What is intent ? Toerless Eckert
- Re: [Anima] What is intent ? Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Anima] What is intent ? Jéferson Campos Nobre
- Re: [Anima] What is intent ? Zoran Despotovic
- Re: [Anima] What is intent ? Artur Hecker
- Re: [Anima] What is intent ? Eliot Lear
- Re: [Anima] What is intent ? Sheng Jiang
- Re: [Anima] What is intent ? Toerless Eckert
- Re: [Anima] What is intent ? Alexander Clemm
- Re: [Anima] What is intent ? Toerless Eckert
- Re: [Anima] What is intent ? Alexander Clemm
- Re: [Anima] What is intent ? Natale, Bob