Re: [antitrust-policy] how does that affect those with no competitive interests?

Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie> Fri, 20 January 2012 22:21 UTC

Return-Path: <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>
X-Original-To: antitrust-policy@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: antitrust-policy@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 953E321F8486 for <antitrust-policy@ietfa.amsl.com>; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 14:21:38 -0800 (PST)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -102.599
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100]
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QYto4W9XQ8LV for <antitrust-policy@ietfa.amsl.com>; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 14:21:37 -0800 (PST)
Received: from scss.tcd.ie (hermes.cs.tcd.ie [IPv6:2001:770:10:200:889f:cdff:fe8d:ccd2]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A1C9D21F847E for <antitrust-policy@ietf.org>; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 14:21:37 -0800 (PST)
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hermes.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTP id C3E0E171CF3; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 22:21:36 +0000 (GMT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cs.tcd.ie; h= content-transfer-encoding:content-type:in-reply-to:references :subject:mime-version:user-agent:from:date:message-id:received :received:x-virus-scanned; s=cs; t=1327098096; bh=MsXQ3lS8qa/QZ+ BjlgeY4ek2g4XfsKaIJcsDRt3cCm0=; b=6qsgdpeHG6u9acFlJoppoTnJatRVZU t4juNl12EWbIRSkU+mgPEUAyHgXt3vBVFB4aJvTKxeovY20IkKUSUQjFjbzDxd4A +9qwzB5wtdAJ4fmbjRfXlRC+yJB6ACCbDLzkh6EIu/RqRnYPiJd4iTXdvnU5T2iV bRcw/lP9pB2r+V07cA/t1N4OAJTaH/hgTj241KleStWk6yhLxBv4hVzWK93U+7Ca pfEJzkWDr/enLlalqU5rIpsq3Qv+A7n60iVHGEyV/P8biG50zfGKxC33HizggRkG 9sUOiTJMKe6KB3lkEwwuxq860tYZpWEYjVam+FKsDAgVRTE0iK3qb9YA==
X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at scss.tcd.ie
Received: from scss.tcd.ie ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (scss.tcd.ie [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10027) with ESMTP id C173hBlX+oNO; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 22:21:36 +0000 (GMT)
Received: from [10.87.48.5] (unknown [86.41.8.14]) by smtp.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 5A70C171CF1; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 22:21:35 +0000 (GMT)
Message-ID: <4F19E8EE.6040309@cs.tcd.ie>
Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 22:21:34 +0000
From: Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux i686 on x86_64; rv:9.0) Gecko/20111222 Thunderbird/9.0.1
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: Jorge Contreras <cntreras@gmail.com>
References: <20120110205143.6FDCF21F86F9@ietfa.amsl.com> <A44BB68F-19AB-462B-8A65-ACA855EA2ED1@vigilsec.com> <DE7B7ADC-F160-4633-8FD0-8453573D9830@vigilsec.com> <4F19DFCF.7090608@cs.tcd.ie> <CAP0PwYZDVF1oGdMikAkxNrx965+W-+uMS-0usRSX9sX8QMaiWg@mail.gmail.com> <4F19E563.8050506@cs.tcd.ie> <CAP0PwYZ8wcf5mN626GTLt8WOUt2zzALmiNEAssij1jucjJ0aBA@mail.gmail.com>
In-Reply-To: <CAP0PwYZ8wcf5mN626GTLt8WOUt2zzALmiNEAssij1jucjJ0aBA@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; format="flowed"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: antitrust-policy@ietf.org, Russ Housley <housley@vigilsec.com>
Subject: Re: [antitrust-policy] how does that affect those with no competitive interests?
X-BeenThere: antitrust-policy@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12
Precedence: list
List-Id: "Discuss the need for an antitrust or competition policy for the IETF." <antitrust-policy.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/antitrust-policy>, <mailto:antitrust-policy-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/antitrust-policy>
List-Post: <mailto:antitrust-policy@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:antitrust-policy-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/antitrust-policy>, <mailto:antitrust-policy-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 22:21:38 -0000

On 01/20/2012 10:14 PM, Jorge Contreras wrote:
>>
>>
>>>>
>>> and many
>>
>>> more would like to.  Also, universities can and are sued for antitrust
>>> violations, and there is no 'academic' immunity from these sorts of
>>> claims.
>>>
>>
>
>>
>> I've never heard of that. Got some examples that might be relevant
>> to the IETF? (Not of IPR or being sued in general, but specific to
>> anti-trust/competition law.)
>
>
>
> I don't have examples that involve standards IPR (but I haven't looked too
> hard yet).  I do know that universities have been sued for antitrust
> violations like colluding to fix tuition rates, etc.  I can dig up some of
> these cases if you're really interested.

I don't think that'd be relevant, so don't bother unless you
do. If there are no relevant examples then that's relevant I
guess.

>> ...
>>
>> My point is that this policy assumes that all participants can
>> in principle be anti-competition which seems like nonsense to
>> me.
>>
>
> Unless someone is participating in IETF purely out of personal interest or
> scientific curiosity, and neither he/she nor his/her employer has any
> financial interest, then antitrust violations can be committed.  I suspect
> this category of people is pretty small.

I think it'd help if we recognised that we're dealing with
extreme hypotheticals here, in terms of potential anti-trust
related actions for anyone not working for a large company.
I would be interested in any counter example involving an
SDO and something that's not a large company.

Hence this putative policy is practically distinguishing
between IETF participants on the basis of the type of their
current employer which is worrisome. (To me at least.)

S

>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> antitrust-policy mailing list
> antitrust-policy@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/antitrust-policy