Re: [antitrust-policy] Who enforces an Antitrust Policy for the IETF
Marshall Eubanks <marshall.eubanks@gmail.com> Sat, 21 January 2012 19:02 UTC
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Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2012 14:02:27 -0500
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From: Marshall Eubanks <marshall.eubanks@gmail.com>
To: John R Levine <johnl@taugh.com>
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Cc: antitrust-policy@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [antitrust-policy] Who enforces an Antitrust Policy for the IETF
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On Fri, Jan 20, 2012 at 5:40 PM, John R Levine <johnl@taugh.com> wrote: >> I would not anticipate an official "enforcer" either. A main benefit >> of the policy is to provide IETF (i.e., ISOC/IETF Trust) a defense if >> it is sued for an antitrust violation committed by its participants. >> At least the organization can say: "We don't condone that type of >> behavior. See our policy that expressly prohibits it." > > >From an alternate universe. > Lawyer: Do you make any attempt to enforce that policy? > > IETF person: Not really. IETF Person' : We have a clear policy and steps to make sure that every participant sees and reads that policy. We also provide training to those in leadership positions, such as working Group Chairs and higher level chairs. > > Lawyer: Have you ever sanctioned anyone for violating it? > > IETF: No. IETF person' : The IETF is largely self enforcing. There is not generally any centralized recording of minor, self correcting, violations of the IETF's norms of behavior, but I am personally have heard from people who complained about behavior that would be problematic from an anti-trust standpoint, and forced that behavior to stop. > > Lawyer: What would happen if I started talking about price fixing at a > meeting? > > IETF: I hope someone would tell you to stop. IETF person' : Based on our chair training, the Chairs should immediately tell them to stop. Based on my experience, various people in the audience would complain to the Chairs if for some reason they didn't pick up on it first. > > Lawyer: What would happen if I didn't? > > IETF: Probably nothing. IETF person' : The IETF is notorious for the strength of its self-policing. Trust me, you don't want to get a line of IETFer's waiting to blast you at the microphone. Of course, the Chairs could and would tell you to sit down or even force you to leave the room or terminate the session outright, depending on how persistent and disruptive you were. On the mailing lists, there are similarly mechanisms to remove people who do not follow the rules, and those mechanisms are used from time to time. > > This would not impress any judge I know. But maybe the responses of IETF person' would. I don't see those responses as being inconsistent at all with the discussion of people's experiences on this list (and my own personal IETF experience), except of course for postulating a modest amount of leadership training and a change in the NOTE WELL. I do not by any means see a reasonable anti-trust policy as something that is inconsistent with the reality of how the IETF organizes and runs its activities. Regards Marshall > > An anti-trust policy is different from our existing policies. The current > policies are about stuff we want, from informal rules about no want ads to > the IPR rules intended to keep someone from pulling another Rambus. (Given > the history of RFCs, I don't think there is any serious chance of a > copyright suit.) > > Anti-trust rules are intended to minimize the chance that the IETF gets > dragged into an anti-trust suit as a co-conspirator, or to help get such a > suit dismissed as easily as possible. An unenforced policy doesn't do that. > > If you want to publish an info sheet about how anti-trust law might apply to > IETF participants, sure, go ahead. But please don't say it's a policy if it > isn't. > > Meta-question: The IETF presumably expects participants to obey all > applicable laws. I presume nobody thinks we need a policy about smoking > marijuana at meetings. Why is this different? > > R's, > John > > _______________________________________________ > antitrust-policy mailing list > antitrust-policy@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/antitrust-policy
- Re: [antitrust-policy] Who enforces an Antitrust … John R Levine
- Re: [antitrust-policy] Who enforces an Antitrust … Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [antitrust-policy] Who enforces an Antitrust … John R Levine
- Re: [antitrust-policy] Who enforces an Antitrust … david.black
- Re: [antitrust-policy] Who enforces an Antitrust … John Levine
- Re: [antitrust-policy] Who enforces an Antitrust … Marshall Eubanks
- Re: [antitrust-policy] Who enforces an Antitrust … david.black
- Re: [antitrust-policy] Who enforces an Antitrust … david.black
- Re: [antitrust-policy] Who enforces an Antitrust … Russ Housley
- Re: [antitrust-policy] Who enforces an Antitrust … Marshall Eubanks
- Re: [antitrust-policy] Who enforces an Antitrust … John R Levine
- Re: [antitrust-policy] Who enforces an Antitrust … Jorge Contreras
- Re: [antitrust-policy] Who enforces an Antitrust … Jorge Contreras
- Re: [antitrust-policy] Who enforces an Antitrust … Marshall Eubanks
- Re: [antitrust-policy] Who enforces an Antitrust … John R Levine
- Re: [antitrust-policy] Who enforces an Antitrust … Marshall Eubanks
- Re: [antitrust-policy] Who enforces an Antitrust … John R Levine
- Re: [antitrust-policy] Who enforces an Antitrust … Stephen Farrell
- Re: [antitrust-policy] Who enforces an Antitrust … Russ Housley
- Re: [antitrust-policy] An antitrust memo strawman John Levine