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Fri, 10 Mar 2023 02:02:29 +0000 From: Stephan Wenger To: "antitrust-policy@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [antitrust-policy] Fwd: I-D Action: draft-halpern-gendispatch-antitrust-05.txt Thread-Index: AQHZUpZ2rtEk4IFrhkaJyHSDtNKJeK7zIlP5 Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2023 02:02:28 +0000 Message-ID: References: <167837316646.46529.9056427917523349000@ietfa.amsl.com> <3ec2645a-642b-de85-bec2-7b54ebace2ca@joelhalpern.com> In-Reply-To: <3ec2645a-642b-de85-bec2-7b54ebace2ca@joelhalpern.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-Hashtags: #NewslettersPlus X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;dmarc=none action=none header.from=stewe.org; x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: DM8PR17MB4903:EE_|IA1PR17MB6696:EE_ x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 20cca4a7-febe-4aa3-3058-08db210b809e x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-ms-exchange-antispam-relay: 0 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: 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 x-forefront-antispam-report: CIP:255.255.255.255; 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boundary="_000_PH0PR17MB4908382BC2326278B5B7AD12AEBA9PH0PR17MB4908namp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: stewe.org X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: DM8PR17MB4903.namprd17.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 20cca4a7-febe-4aa3-3058-08db210b809e X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 10 Mar 2023 02:02:28.9108 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 865fc51c-5fae-4322-98ef-0121a85df0b6 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: Ls8EQWPalaU+L/QwxGe4BzTH4kc/xP0HEKmER6a/d5qLKwMeeuURdcbs+himBvFq X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: IA1PR17MB6696 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [antitrust-policy] Fwd: I-D Action: draft-halpern-gendispatch-antitrust-05.txt X-BeenThere: antitrust-policy@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.39 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discuss the need for an antitrust or competition policy for the IETF." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2023 02:02:39 -0000 --_000_PH0PR17MB4908382BC2326278B5B7AD12AEBA9PH0PR17MB4908namp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Joel, all, Thanks for the update. I see improvement in the presentation, but not in s= ome parts of the substance I care about. I continue to fear that this document, if approved, will be used by ill-inf= ormed, or over-zealous, or perhaps corporate agenda-driven participants in = attempts to shut down discussions that are allowed by agreed policy, are wi= thin their personal risk tolerance on antitrust matters (that may well be b= ased on advice of their antitrust counsel), and could lead to better standa= rds. My main concern is again with section 4.2., but I see now also a need= for non-editorial changes in 4.1. Here are my suggestions. Some rationa= le was provided before https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/antitrust-poli= cy/G2XjDJYA0Rln_oczKVsIyx1dhpE/, and is not repeated here. 1. In the first bullet of section 4.2, add =93unpublished=94 to =93detai= led market data=94. If you disagree, please explain why. 1. Remove the second bullet of section 4.2. The second bullet here has IMO the potential to shift the practices of the = IETF in a direction appreciated primarily by those offering technical alter= natives under terms that are less commercially attractive than other techni= cal alternatives, and secondarily by those with comparatively bigger antitr= ust exposure. Those changes would potentially disfavor organizations not i= nterested in monetarizing their IP, smaller entities, academics, and indivi= duals. Upon reflection and re-reading posts of others also addressing this= bullet, I have come around to suggest you remove this bullet in its entire= ty, as it may constitute a policy change in practice, despite what the (app= reciated) clarifications in the doc declare. I believe=97and I think you would concur=97that nothing is wrong per se wit= h =93Seeking clarifications about IPR disclosures=94. Doing so may well be= beneficial for the operation of the IETF; see my example in my previous po= st, cited above. Pointing out the content of disclosures, including words = like RAND or RAND-Z, should be fine. Even justifying one=92s support of on= e technology over another based on disclosure content should be fine. I th= ink the line is crossed when people (presumably being affiliated with compe= titors) start ganging up using their power to force a supplier towards belo= w market prices, independent on whether the supplier supplies IP or somethi= ng else. That=92s not something that happens through mere clarification qu= estions on IPR disclosures though, and it may well happen in other contexts= . Such group negotiation is a red flag (yes, I like that term and wish we = wouldn=92t have removed it :-) and should be covered under 4.1. 1. Section 4.1, add buyer/licensee collusion. I leave the wordsmithing to folks with more experience, but I think somethi= ng like =93discussion about supplier=92s pricing (including IP royalties)= =94 needs to be added. Perhaps with a clarification like =93it=92s a corne= rstone of the IETF=92s IPR regime that individuals make their own decisions= regarding the monetary or other price they are willing to pay for a techno= logy, but that price, especially when expressed in dollar values, must not = be discussed in an IETF setting. Don=92t ask, don=92t tell.=94. 1. Section 4.1, =93representatives from competitors=94. As it is pointed out elsewhere in the doc, in the IETF, we participate spec= ifically NOT as representatives of our employers but in an individual capac= ity only. Insofar, logic suggests that the paragraph as written does not a= pply to IETF participation but rather states a general observation from whi= ch the IETF is safely isolated due to its rather uncommon policy of individ= ual participation. I think that this is a misperception that needs to be a= ddressed. 1. Section 4.1, structure as a bullet list as the para, as written, is c= lose to unreadable? If not, why not? Rationale was previously provided. Thanks, Stephan From: antitrust-policy on behalf of Joe= l Halpern Date: Thursday, March 9, 2023 at 06:50 To: antitrust-policy@ietf.org Cc: gendispatch@ietf.org Subject: [antitrust-policy] Fwd: I-D Action: draft-halpern-gendispatch-anti= trust-05.txt antitrust-policy: As noted below, the authors have posted a new version of the antitrust = draft. We have tried to make more clear that it is educational and informa= tional material, and does not change IETF policy. As per suggestions, we h= ave replaced the red-flag / yellow flag descriptions with what we hope are = clearer descriptions of the categories. Please read and comment on the ant= itrust-policy list. Gendispatch: We have been asked to provide a 10 minute presentation at IETF 116 to d= iscuss the dispatching of this draft. Content discussion, as per the annou= ncements, is still on antitrust-policy. The slides will review the table o= f contents of the draft, and then state the dispatch decision for any furth= er discussion by the WG. Thank you, Joel (and Brad and Jay) -------- Forwarded Message -------- Subject: I-D Action: draft-halpern-gendispatch-antitrust-05.txt Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2023 06:46:06 -0800 From: internet-drafts@ietf.org Reply-To: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: i-d-announce@ietf.org A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts director= ies. Title : Antitrust Guidelines for IETF Participants Authors : Joel M. Halpern Brad Biddle Jay Daley Filename : draft-halpern-gendispatch-antitrust-05.txt Pages : 8 Date : 2023-03-09 Abstract: This document provides education and guidance for IETF participants on compliance with antitrust laws and how to reduce antitrust risks in connection with IETF activities. The IETF datatracker status page for this Internet-Draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-halpern-gendispatch-antitrust/ There is also an HTML version available at: https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-halpern-gendispatch-antitrust-05.html A diff from the previous version is available at: https://author-tools.ietf.org/iddiff?url2=3Ddraft-halpern-gendispatch-antit= rust-05 Internet-Drafts are also available by rsync at rsync.ietf.org::internet-dra= fts _______________________________________________ I-D-Announce mailing list I-D-Announce@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce Internet-Draft directories: http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt --_000_PH0PR17MB4908382BC2326278B5B7AD12AEBA9PH0PR17MB4908namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Joel, all,

 

Thanks for the update.  I see improvement in th= e presentation, but not in some parts of the substance I care about.

 

I continue to fear that this document, if approved, = will be used by ill-informed, or over-zealous, or perhaps corporate agenda-= driven participants in attempts to shut down discussions that are allowed b= y agreed policy, are within their personal risk tolerance on antitrust matters (that may well be based on ad= vice of their antitrust counsel), and could lead to better standards. = My main concern is again with section 4.2., but I see now also a need for = non-editorial changes in 4.1.  Here are my suggestions.   Some rationale was provided before https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/antitrust-policy/G2XjDJYA0Rln_oczKVsI= yx1dhpE/, and is not repeated here.

 

  1. In the first bullet of section 4.2, add =93unpublished=94 to =93detai= led market data=94.  If you disagree, please explain why.

 

  1. Remove the second bullet of section 4.2.

The second bullet here has IMO the potential to shif= t the practices of the IETF in a direction appreciated primarily by those o= ffering technical alternatives under terms that are less commercially attra= ctive than other technical alternatives, and secondarily by those with comparatively bigger antitrust exposure.&nbs= p; Those changes would potentially disfavor organizations not interested in= monetarizing their IP, smaller entities, academics, and individuals. = Upon reflection and re-reading posts of others also addressing this bullet, I have come around to suggest you remove this= bullet in its entirety, as it may constitute a policy change in practice, = despite what the (appreciated) clarifications in the doc declare. 
I believe=97and I think you would concur=97that nothing is wrong per se wit= h =93Seeking clarifications about IPR disclosures=94.  Doing so may we= ll be beneficial for the operation of the IETF; see my example in my previo= us post, cited above.  Pointing out the content of disclosures, including words like RAND or RAND-Z, should be fine. = Even justifying one=92s support of one technology over another based on di= sclosure content should be fine.  I think the line is crossed when peo= ple (presumably being affiliated with competitors) start ganging up using their power to force a supplier towards below marke= t prices, independent on whether the supplier supplies IP or something else= .  That=92s not something that happens through mere clarification ques= tions on IPR disclosures though, and it may well happen in other contexts.  Such group negotiation is a red f= lag (yes, I like that term and wish we wouldn=92t have removed it :-) and s= hould be covered under 4.1.

  1. Section 4.1, add buyer/licensee collusion.

I leave the wordsmithing to folks with more experien= ce, but I think something like =93discussion about supplier=92s pricing (in= cluding IP royalties)=94 needs to be added.  Perhaps with a clarificat= ion like =93it=92s a cornerstone of the IETF=92s IPR regime that individuals make their own decisions regarding the monetary or= other price they are willing to pay for a technology, but that price, espe= cially when expressed in dollar values, must not be discussed in an IETF se= tting.  Don=92t ask, don=92t tell.=94. 

 

  1. Section 4.1, =93representatives from competitors=94. 

As it is pointed out elsewhere in the doc, in the IE= TF, we participate specifically NOT as representatives of our employers but= in an individual capacity only.  Insofar, logic suggests that the par= agraph as written does not apply to IETF participation but rather states a general observation from which the IETF = is safely isolated due to its rather uncommon policy of individual particip= ation.  I think that this is a misperception that needs to be addresse= d.

 

  1. Section 4.1, structure as a bullet list as the para, as written, is c= lose to unreadable?  If not, why not?

Rationale was previously provided.

 

Thanks,

Stephan

 

 

From: antitrust-policy &l= t;antitrust-policy-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Joel Halpern <jmh@j= oelhalpern.com>
Date: Thursday, March 9, 2023 at 06:50
To: antitrust-policy@ietf.org <antitrust-policy@ietf.org>
Cc: gendispatch@ietf.org <gendispatch@ietf.org>
Subject: [antitrust-policy] Fwd: I-D Action: draft-halpern-gendispat= ch-antitrust-05.txt

antitrust-policy: 

    As noted below, the authors have posted a new version= of the antitrust draft.  We have tried to make more clear that it is = educational and informational material, and does not change IETF policy.&nb= sp; As per suggestions, we have replaced the red-flag / yellow flag descriptions with what we hope are clearer descriptions of the catego= ries.  Please read and comment on the antitrust-policy list. 

Gendispatch:

    We have been asked to provide a 10 minute presentatio= n at IETF 116 to discuss the dispatching of this draft.  Content discu= ssion, as per the announcements, is still on antitrust-policy.  The sl= ides will review the table of contents of the draft, and then state the dispatch decision for any further discussion by the WG.

Thank you,

Joel (and Brad and Jay)



-------- Forwarded Message --------

Subjec= t:

I-D Action: draft-halpern-gendispatch-antitrust-05.t= xt

Date: =

Thu, 09 Mar 2023 06:46:06 -0800

From: =

internet= -drafts@ietf.org

Reply-= To:

internet= -drafts@ietf.org

To:

i-d-announc= e@ietf.org




A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts director= ies.


Title : Antitrust Guidelines for IETF Participants
Authors : Joel M. Halpern
Brad Biddle
Jay Daley
Filename : draft-halpern-gendispatch-antitrust-05.txt
Pages : 8
Date : 2023-03-09

Abstract:
This document provides education and guidance for IETF participants
on compliance with antitrust laws and how to reduce antitrust risks
in connection with IETF activities.


The IETF datatracker status page for this Internet-Draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-halpern-gendispatch-antitrust= /

There is also an HTML version available at:
https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-halpern-gendispatch-anti= trust-05.html

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://author-tools.ietf.org/iddiff?url2=3Ddraft-halpe= rn-gendispatch-antitrust-05


Internet-Drafts are also available by rsync at rsync.ietf.org::internet-dra= fts


_______________________________________________
I-D-Announce mailing list
I-D-Announce@ietf.org
https://www.= ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce
Internet-Draft directories: htt= p://www.ietf.org/shadow.html
or ftp://ftp.ietf.org= /ietf/1shadow-sites.txt

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