Re: [antitrust-policy] how does that affect those with no competitive interests?
<david.black@emc.com> Fri, 20 January 2012 23:48 UTC
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From: david.black@emc.com
To: stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie
Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 18:48:04 -0500
Thread-Topic: [antitrust-policy] how does that affect those with no competitive interests?
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Cc: antitrust-policy@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [antitrust-policy] how does that affect those with no competitive interests?
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> > I'll leave the INCITS version of John Levine's hypothetical cross-examination as an > > exercise for the reader, aside from noting that it would diverge dramatically at the > > very first answer. > > And therein lies the danger. If we were to try get into a position > where the IETF says more than "not really" then we're probably heading > towards paid membership. (More than "not really," implies that we > can eject folks and their sock-puppets far more efficiently than now, > which implies we know who everyone is and who they represent...) What difference do you see between paid membership and paid meeting fees? Thanks, --David > -----Original Message----- > From: Stephen Farrell [mailto:stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie] > Sent: Friday, January 20, 2012 6:37 PM > To: Black, David > Cc: antitrust-policy@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [antitrust-policy] how does that affect those with no competitive interests? > > > > On 01/20/2012 11:26 PM, david.black@emc.com wrote: > >>> An alternative to your view is that violation of such laws is detrimental not > >>> only to those who may be responsible for the violations, but also to the effective > >>> operation of the IETF as a whole, and I believe all IETF participants have > >>> (or should have) an interest in the latter. > >> > >> Fair point. Does that need a policy (other than "Don't be bold")? > > > > Yes - it's a good idea to spell out what not being bold means in somewhat more detail ;-). > > > > As I've noted earlier, here's an example of a somewhat more detailed standards organization > > anti-trust policy (see the bulleted list of six Sensitive Topics): > > > > http://www.incits.org/inatrust.htm > > > > Notice of that policy is given as part of every INCITS standards meeting (it's part of > > the INCITS functional equivalent of the NOTE WELL), and the policy is enforced. While > > it doesn't happen very often, I have seen the policyi enforced in practice. > > > > I'll leave the INCITS version of John Levine's hypothetical cross-examination as an > > exercise for the reader, aside from noting that it would diverge dramatically at the > > very first answer. > > And therein lies the danger. If we were to try get into a position > where the IETF says more than "not really" then we're probably heading > towards paid membership. (More than "not really," implies that we > can eject folks and their sock-puppets far more efficiently than now, > which implies we know who everyone is and who they represent...) > > If there's a way to usefully say "don't be bold about anti-trust" that > doesn't sit at the top of that slippery slope then I'd be interested > in seeing that. > > S > > > > > Thanks, > > --David > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: Stephen Farrell [mailto:stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie] > >> Sent: Friday, January 20, 2012 6:10 PM > >> To: Black, David > >> Cc: antitrust-policy@ietf.org > >> Subject: Re: [antitrust-policy] how does that affect those with no competitive interests? > >> > >> > >> > >> On 01/20/2012 11:02 PM, david.black@emc.com wrote: > >>>>> Excuse me, but anti-trust law applies to companies of all sizes. I'll leave finding relevant > >>>>> case law examples to Jorge, aside from noting that Rambus may be one such example. > >>>> > >>>> Fair enough wrt company size. I've no idea how big Rambus > >>>> were at the time. > >>>> > >>>> But my main point still applies, I believe. > >>> > >>> I appreciate that ... as to your main point: > >>> > >>>>>>>> My point is that this policy assumes that all participants can > >>>>>>>> in principle be anti-competition which seems like nonsense to > >>>>>>>> me. > >>> > >>> Hmm ... Russ's second paragraph was: > >>> > >>> Yet, it is worth reminding all IETF participants that all IETF meetings, > >>> including virtual meetings, shall be conducted in compliance with all > >>> applicable laws, including antitrust and competition laws. > >> > >> Right. "Don't be bold" is fine advice. But not really a policy. > >> (I'd also be interested in the answer to John Levine's most > >> recent question [1].) > >> > >>> An alternative to your view is that violation of such laws is detrimental not > >>> only to those who may be responsible for the violations, but also to the effective > >>> operation of the IETF as a whole, and I believe all IETF participants have > >>> (or should have) an interest in the latter. > >> > >> Fair point. Does that need a policy (other than "Don't be bold")? > >> > >> S > >> > >> [1] > >> http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/antitrust-policy/current/msg00052.html > >> > >> > >>> > >>> Thanks, > >>> --David > >>> > >>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>> From: antitrust-policy-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:antitrust-policy-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of > >>>> Stephen Farrell > >>>> Sent: Friday, January 20, 2012 5:53 PM > >>>> To: Black, David > >>>> Cc: antitrust-policy@ietf.org > >>>> Subject: Re: [antitrust-policy] how does that affect those with no competitive interests? > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> On 01/20/2012 10:47 PM, david.black@emc.com wrote: > >>>>>> In the absence of any relevant anti-trust + SDO + non-large > >>>>>> company example from anywhere in the world, I disagree. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> I'll happily admit I'm wrong if someone has a relevant > >>>>>> example. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Building a policy that includes non-large-company employees > >>>>>> based on nothing concrete seems wrong. > >>>>> > >>>>> Excuse me, but anti-trust law applies to companies of all sizes. I'll leave finding relevant > >>>>> case law examples to Jorge, aside from noting that Rambus may be one such example. > >>>> > >>>> Fair enough wrt company size. I've no idea how big Rambus > >>>> were at the time. > >>>> > >>>> But my main point still applies, I believe. > >>>> > >>>> S > >>>> > >>>>>> Building a policy that distinguishes between IETF participants > >>>>>> based on the type of their employer seems wrong. > >>>>> > >>>>> I suggest this approach, particularly if the policy is not burdensome (e.g., a list of > >>>>> topics that should not be discussed), as there are a significant number of IETF participants > >>>>> whose organizations are concerned about anti-trust (e.g., employees of large companies), > >>>>> and I would hope everyone would be interested in encouraging broad participation in the IETF. > >>>>> > >>>>> Thanks, > >>>>> --David > >>>>> > >>>>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>>>> From: antitrust-policy-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:antitrust-policy-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of > >>>>>> Stephen Farrell > >>>>>> Sent: Friday, January 20, 2012 5:32 PM > >>>>>> To: Thomas Narten > >>>>>> Cc: antitrust-policy@ietf.org; Russ Housley; Jorge Contreras > >>>>>> Subject: Re: [antitrust-policy] how does that affect those with no competitive interests? > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> On 01/20/2012 10:18 PM, Thomas Narten wrote: > >>>>>>> Stephen Farrell<stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie> writes: > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> My point is that this policy assumes that all participants can > >>>>>>>> in principle be anti-competition which seems like nonsense to > >>>>>>>> me. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Not to put too fine a point on this, but engineers with no background > >>>>>>> in anti-trust opining "much ado about nothing, I work for XYZ which > >>>>>>> can't possibly cause an issue" makes a good argument for why we do > >>>>>>> need a policy. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> In the absence of any relevant anti-trust + SDO + non-large > >>>>>> company example from anywhere in the world, I disagree. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> I'll happily admit I'm wrong if someone has a relevant > >>>>>> example. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Building a policy that includes non-large-company employees > >>>>>> based on nothing concrete seems wrong. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Building a policy that distinguishes between IETF participants > >>>>>> based on the type of their employer seems wrong. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> The above two seem to be the choices here. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > But it better be simple, clear and be understandable by > >>>>>>> IETF participants. And maybe calling it a "policy" goes to far. What > >>>>>>> we need is enough basic education about participant behavior to make > >>>>>>> sure the IETF keeps out of trouble. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Much as we might like to ignore IPR, anti-trust, and other > >>>>>>> non-engineering issues, we are potentially impacted by them, and the > >>>>>>> IETF could (if it or its participants behave stupidly), could find > >>>>>>> itself in a Heap of Pain. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> But let's keep perspective here. Some simple guidelines, with an > >>>>>>> understanding that if folk start going into dangerous territory that > >>>>>>> needs to be stopped is probably about all we need. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> I pretty much agree with the above. But I don't see what's required > >>>>>> that's new compared to what we already have. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> S. > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Thomas > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>> antitrust-policy mailing list > >>>>>> antitrust-policy@ietf.org > >>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/antitrust-policy > >>>>> > >>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>> antitrust-policy mailing list > >>>>> antitrust-policy@ietf.org > >>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/antitrust-policy > >>>>> > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> antitrust-policy mailing list > >>>> antitrust-policy@ietf.org > >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/antitrust-policy > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> antitrust-policy mailing list > >>> antitrust-policy@ietf.org > >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/antitrust-policy > >>> > > > > _______________________________________________ > > antitrust-policy mailing list > > antitrust-policy@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/antitrust-policy > >
- [antitrust-policy] New Non-WG Mailing List: antit… IETF Secretariat
- Re: [antitrust-policy] An Antitrust Policy for th… Russ Housley
- Re: [antitrust-policy] An Antitrust Policy for th… Russ Housley
- Re: [antitrust-policy] An Antitrust Policy for th… Marshall Eubanks
- Re: [antitrust-policy] An Antitrust Policy for th… Joel M. Halpern
- Re: [antitrust-policy] An Antitrust Policy for th… Stephan Wenger
- Re: [antitrust-policy] An Antitrust Policy for th… Jorge Contreras
- Re: [antitrust-policy] An Antitrust Policy for th… Joel M. Halpern
- Re: [antitrust-policy] An Antitrust Policy for th… Jorge Contreras
- Re: [antitrust-policy] An Antitrust Policy for th… Stephan Wenger
- Re: [antitrust-policy] An Antitrust Policy for th… Stephan Wenger
- Re: [antitrust-policy] An Antitrust Policy for th… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [antitrust-policy] An Antitrust Policy for th… Jorge Contreras
- [antitrust-policy] Proprietary information [An An… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [antitrust-policy] Proprietary information [A… Jorge Contreras
- Re: [antitrust-policy] An Antitrust Policy for th… Rigo Wenning
- Re: [antitrust-policy] An Antitrust Policy for th… Jorge Contreras
- [antitrust-policy] Should the IETF allow discussi… Russ Housley
- Re: [antitrust-policy] Should the IETF allow disc… Jorge Contreras
- Re: [antitrust-policy] Should the IETF allow disc… Stephan Wenger
- Re: [antitrust-policy] Should the IETF allow disc… Russ Housley
- Re: [antitrust-policy] Should the IETF allow disc… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [antitrust-policy] Should the IETF allow disc… Jorge Contreras
- [antitrust-policy] how does that affect those wit… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [antitrust-policy] how does that affect those… Jorge Contreras
- Re: [antitrust-policy] how does that affect those… Marshall Eubanks
- Re: [antitrust-policy] how does that affect those… Russ Housley
- Re: [antitrust-policy] Should the IETF allow disc… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [antitrust-policy] Should the IETF allow disc… Jorge Contreras
- Re: [antitrust-policy] how does that affect those… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [antitrust-policy] An Antitrust Policy for th… Thomas Narten
- Re: [antitrust-policy] Should the IETF allow disc… Thomas Narten
- Re: [antitrust-policy] how does that affect those… Marshall Eubanks
- Re: [antitrust-policy] how does that affect those… Jorge Contreras
- Re: [antitrust-policy] how does that affect those… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [antitrust-policy] how does that affect those… Thomas Narten
- Re: [antitrust-policy] how does that affect those… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [antitrust-policy] Should the IETF allow disc… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [antitrust-policy] how does that affect those… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [antitrust-policy] how does that affect those… david.black
- Re: [antitrust-policy] how does that affect those… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [antitrust-policy] how does that affect those… david.black
- Re: [antitrust-policy] how does that affect those… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [antitrust-policy] how does that affect those… david.black
- Re: [antitrust-policy] how does that affect those… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [antitrust-policy] how does that affect those… david.black
- Re: [antitrust-policy] how does that affect those… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [antitrust-policy] back to what problem are w… John Levine
- Re: [antitrust-policy] back to what problem are w… George Willingmyre
- Re: [antitrust-policy] how does that affect those… Rigo Wenning
- Re: [antitrust-policy] how does that affect those… Joel M. Halpern
- Re: [antitrust-policy] how does that affect those… Jorge Contreras
- Re: [antitrust-policy] how does that affect those… Stephan Wenger
- Re: [antitrust-policy] how does that affect those… John Levine
- Re: [antitrust-policy] how does that affect those… david.black
- Re: [antitrust-policy] how does that affect those… John Levine
- Re: [antitrust-policy] how does that affect those… david.black
- Re: [antitrust-policy] how does that affect those… Rigo Wenning