Re: [antitrust-policy] Key takeaways from genarea session at IETF 118

John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> Thu, 11 January 2024 02:05 UTC

Return-Path: <johnl@iecc.com>
X-Original-To: antitrust-policy@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: antitrust-policy@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ECA57C14F6A4 for <antitrust-policy@ietfa.amsl.com>; Wed, 10 Jan 2024 18:05:42 -0800 (PST)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.857
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.857 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.249, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, RCVD_IN_ZEN_BLOCKED_OPENDNS=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, URIBL_DBL_BLOCKED_OPENDNS=0.001, URIBL_ZEN_BLOCKED_OPENDNS=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=iecc.com header.b="Zc9J9UfQ"; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=taugh.com header.b="2xE3Tkto"
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([50.223.129.194]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LPc7_YB_tf6b for <antitrust-policy@ietfa.amsl.com>; Wed, 10 Jan 2024 18:05:38 -0800 (PST)
Received: from gal.iecc.com (gal.iecc.com [IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126:0:43:6f73:7461]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0AD86C14CEFC for <antitrust-policy@ietf.org>; Wed, 10 Jan 2024 18:05:37 -0800 (PST)
Received: (qmail 61517 invoked from network); 11 Jan 2024 02:05:35 -0000
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed; d=iecc.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:cleverness; s=f048659f4cef.k2401; bh=DEvnm+IwALlluNPVgpL+XZhKRxozit3viNHZikaXz50=; b=Zc9J9UfQ3bih2iC7BmY5s8ARtWTJD8UCRF59wPAtYbxTsar7lp8dbs64RRLGZ+Zy7vmdhFrd5sdCasP5vBGWeRMtDpKf7H4bJrbD7lFqEWV5+0DVFOUesEq5lEUWI9WbS44J4nPbnuERN8TKV6qIjpj2bbLbbqxoRK2bkHPyIu1aB7iJecIiZiTeaMEKUizfQQU9yk5y+t1+ckxdDWlBi+tjQZYAghO8xARLZDazxZUEDy44iOIQJUtn0ZyM7IytoYBha4++zTFQbtUcvPopznRDSB6+E79bxIH8Os5bS4CVBHTuqgAIrDKKjKF/xFds4XVEx7b979ywj4x9R+htSw==
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed; d=taugh.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:cleverness; s=f048659f4cef.k2401; bh=DEvnm+IwALlluNPVgpL+XZhKRxozit3viNHZikaXz50=; b=2xE3TktoNagVA1z/X+Dw3X1WKjSSNWtlEm8WHTrvzo8rjKncHezyD7EeKIPb9Z/kLbnfYxckrQkn7Dpf1ACiKKZs/tI64kzxGkDoIBOBl6nL6ES55t8THywGehUL0qN0LUANAKlbrW6Bq0v+DRTQ/EroI63X3efAiXtY6fLbmkjOfRFgOpoNGfvl75RzarrMxatr4/uUARy4vsVMxpXn4b+5q1kpH0Te3Q/dAb00d0fOiYQB6hf6M6KoMpDuideOeiCbUaH1009aNdAedXnu5uzJAFqrWkPddVy9obEm6R2mTAA8HV2kyfAWMDuKmUMJKnIPXexBkONJAjpeMFbZMQ==
Received: from ary.qy ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) by imap.iecc.com ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) with ESMTPS (TLS1.3 ECDHE-RSA CHACHA20-POLY1305 AEAD) via TCP6; 11 Jan 2024 02:05:35 -0000
Received: by ary.qy (Postfix, from userid 501) id 2AAFD806753A; Wed, 10 Jan 2024 21:05:34 -0500 (EST)
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2024 21:05:34 -0500
Message-Id: <20240111020535.2AAFD806753A@ary.qy>
From: John Levine <johnl@taugh.com>
To: antitrust-policy@ietf.org
In-Reply-To: <1ca3cde8-4401-491c-a98e-a2ad41430628@joelhalpern.com>
Organization: Taughannock Networks
X-Headerized: yes
Cleverness: minimal
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/antitrust-policy/dBAT1quCbdcP34d4y-wtFUIHJno>
Subject: Re: [antitrust-policy] Key takeaways from genarea session at IETF 118
X-BeenThere: antitrust-policy@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.39
Precedence: list
List-Id: "Discuss the need for an antitrust or competition policy for the IETF." <antitrust-policy.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/antitrust-policy>, <mailto:antitrust-policy-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/antitrust-policy/>
List-Post: <mailto:antitrust-policy@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:antitrust-policy-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/antitrust-policy>, <mailto:antitrust-policy-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2024 02:05:43 -0000

It appears that Joel Halpern  <jmh@joelhalpern.com> said:
>> I don't know how to evaluate "potentially discriminatory" ...

>A WG creating a general policy that applies equally to all IPR 
>declarations (subject to all sorts of other constraints unrelated to 
>antitrust) is not discriminatory.  A set of people from a set of 
>companies deciding to oppose IPR from one participant (even if they make 
>that opposition public) appears to me to be discriminatory and from what 
>I understand poses significant risk of running afoul of antitrust / 
>competition regulation.

I'm confused too.  I would think a group saying "we all have cross licenses
so this is fine" would be potentially discriminatory since it excludes people
not in the group.

"We don't like your stuff" and/or "we don't like your license" so the
WG doesn't use it at all doesn't have that problem. (It better not or
we can't reject bad ideas.) I suppose it might be a problem if it then
leads to "so let's use the cross licensed thing instead", but this is
never going to be something where we can draw mechanical bright lines.

R's,
John