Re: [Apn] [arch-d] Questions for APN: Q#5
John C Klensin <john-ietf@jck.com> Mon, 21 September 2020 15:31 UTC
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Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2020 11:31:10 -0400
From: John C Klensin <john-ietf@jck.com>
To: "Joel M. Halpern" <jmh@joelhalpern.com>, Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema.net>, "Pengshuping (Peng Shuping)" <pengshuping@huawei.com>, apn@ietf.org
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Subject: Re: [Apn] [arch-d] Questions for APN: Q#5
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Agreed. And let me stress and expand on one of his points. The ARPANET and Internet were built on top of a small number of basic design principles and goals. One was to be completely insensitive to the applications being run so that packets, routing, and policies could be application-independent. We've pushed the boundaries of that principle in the past but, unless I misunderstand your proposal, its effect would be to abandon it entirely. If so, I think the community needs a fairly comprehensive explanation of why that is necessary and how to control or mitigate the negative effects. john --On Monday, September 21, 2020 09:45 -0400 "Joel M. Halpern" <jmh@joelhalpern.com> wrote: > Well said. Thank you Christian. > Joel > > On 9/21/2020 2:54 AM, Christian Huitema wrote: >> Shuping, >> >> I am reading your use cases, and my immediate reaction is >> that this developments should not be addressed solely in the >> routing or IP layers. You are proposing to enrich the >> network service proposed to transport and applications, >> which amounts to creating new APIs. Such works affects >> multiple layers, and should be coordinated between multiple >> layers. >> >> I also see that the description of application requirements >> is very thin. The drafts mention augmented reality and >> online games, and focus largely on latency requirements for >> these applications. The latency has two main components: >> delays in the wires, and queues in the routers. The APN >> draft for example mentions players of games using servers on >> another continent, and thus experiencing large latency. But >> that latency is largely due to the distance. That distance >> is not going to be magically reduced by smarter queue >> processing. The same is even more true for video >> conferencing or telepresence applications. I live near >> Seattle. If I want to talk to my mother in France, the bits >> have to be carried across America and the across the >> Atlantic ocean. No amount of smart routing will change that. >> Application developers are well aware of these issues, and >> have designed their applications in consequence. >> >> There is a lot of tension between Internet Architecture and >> the "application aware" proposal. The Internet was built on >> a fundamental decision to not be application aware. Instead, >> the routers carry packets of bits, independently of which >> application uses these bits. That way, new applications can >> constantly be invented, without requiring modifications in >> the network or permissions from the network operators. This >> has proven to be key for the development of the Internet. I >> don't think that we want to change that. Even if we did I >> don't think that the discussion should take place solely in >> some specialized routing working groups. >> >> -- Christian Huitema >> >> >> On 9/20/2020 7:19 PM, Pengshuping (Peng Shuping) wrote: >>> >>> Dear all, >>> >>> # 5. What are the valuable use cases/usage scenarios of APN? >>> >>> Drafts have been posted on various use cases such as Game >>> Accelerating, Edge computing, SD-WAN etc. >>> >>> 1)https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-li-apn-problem-statement >>> -usecases-01 >>> >>> 2) https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-liu-apn-edge-usecase-00 >>> >>> 3) >>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-zhang-apn-acceleration-use >>> case-00 >>> >>> 4) >>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-yang-apn-sd-wan-usecase-00 >>> >>> Use cases have also been presented and discussed during the >>> APN side meeting@IETF108. Please find the slides. >>> >>> https://github.com/APN-Community/IETF108-Side-Meeting-APN >>> >>> There have been some discussions on these use cases in the >>> APN mailing list as well. Please find the archives. >>> >>> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apn/c-fQP4LRpe6yj3lJBs >>> aRxTVcWHA/ >>> >>> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apn/MCVuBYa7jgtJsIDEpb >>> GTZ0U8Bvg/ >>> >>> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apn/c-fQP4LRpe6yj3lJBs >>> aRxTVcWHA/ >>> >>> More interesting use cases are waiting to be explored. >>> Please let us know if you have any other use cases. Thank >>> you! >>> >>> Best regards, >>> >>> Shuping >>> >>> *From:*Lizhenbin >>> *Sent:* Monday, September 14, 2020 10:35 PM >>> *To:* apn@ietf.org >>> *Cc:* Pengshuping (Peng Shuping) <pengshuping@huawei.com> >>> *Subject:* Question List for APN >>> >>> Hi Folks, >>> >>> Thanks very much for your attention to APN work. After much >>> preparation work, we summarized the key questions to be >>> clarified for APN which also were always asked. In fact in >>> the past discussion and the APN side meeting of IETF108, >>> many of these questions were discussed and clarified. Here >>> we propose these questions together for your convenience. >>> >>> The questions to be clarified are as follows: >>> >>> # 1. Which layer is for APN to do the application-aware work? >>> >>> # 2. Does APN provide services within a limited-domain or >>> # Internet? >>> >>> # 3. Which area in IETF would the APN work fit better? >>> >>> # 4. What is the relationship between APN and other attempts >>> # in IETF's >>> history? >>> >>> # 5. What are the valuable use cases/usage scenarios of APN? >>> >>> # 6. Is the fine-granularity operations needed/desired in >>> # the network? >>> >>> # 7. Why not just use DSCP? >>> >>> # 8. Does APN violate network neutrality? >>> >>> # 9. Will APN raise security issues since application-aware >>> # information >>> is carried in the APN packets? >>> >>> # 10. Will APN raise privacy issues since application-aware >>> # information >>> is carried in the APN packets? >>> >>> Shuping Peng will send the detailed answers for these >>> questions in the mailing list in the following one or two >>> weeks. The questions and answers may be not only be sent in >>> the APN mailing list, but also be copied to the >>> architecture discussion mailing list and the network token >>> mailing list for more cross-area feedback if necessary. >>> >>> If you have any comments on these questions and answers, we >>> can go on to discuss through the mailing list. >>> >>> Best Regards, >>> >>> Zhenbin (Robin) >>> >>> *From:*Apn [mailto:apn-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of >>> *Lizhenbin *Sent:* Tuesday, August 18, 2020 7:22 PM >>> *To:* apn@ietf.org <mailto:apn@ietf.org> >>> *Subject:* [Apn] Welcome to APN Mailing List >>> >>> Hi Folks, >>> >>> Welcome to join the APN mailing list. We are glad to have >>> more discussion through the mailing list as the follow-up >>> of the IETF108 APN side meeting. >>> >>> In the process of APN work, many historic work items such as >>> SPUD, PLUS, etc. have been proposed. It has been tried to >>> be clarified that APN focuses >>> >>> on the network layer and limited domains. Concerns on the >>> security and privacy issues also have been proposed many >>> times about the work. It also >>> >>> has been tried to be clarified that in the trustable limited >>> domains the security and privacy issues can be under >>> control. These are the reasons why APN >>> >>> work is based in the RTG area instead of ART/TSV areas. >>> >>> But because of too much historic work to be clarified and >>> its proposing the cross-area discussion for which >>> RTG/APP/TSV/INT/SEC/IRTF are involved, it is >>> >>> necessary to have more discussion to clarify the scope and >>> work items for APN. We wish the mailing list would be >>> helpful to the work and promoting the >>> >>> cross-area communication to understand each other better. >>> >>> You can get yourself up to speed with our discussions so far >>> by seeing the materials at >>> <https://github.com/APN-Community/>, especially the >>> materials >>> >>> From the virtual IETF 108 APN side meeting at >>> <https://github.com/APN-Community/IETF108-Side-Meeting-APN>. >>> This link also gives you pointers to >>> >>> some of the relevant Internet-Drafts. >>> >>> Over the next few weeks we will try to guide discussion by >>> introducing some questions for debate. But please also >>> raise your own issues and concerns >>> >>> and contribute to the exchanges on this list. >>> >>> Look forwarding to have more fun discussion in the mailing >>> list. >>> >>> Best Regards, >>> >>> Dan & Zhenbin >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Architecture-discuss mailing list >>> Architecture-discuss@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/architecture-discuss >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Architecture-discuss mailing list >> Architecture-discuss@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/architecture-discuss >> > > _______________________________________________ > Architecture-discuss mailing list > Architecture-discuss@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/architecture-discuss
- [Apn] Questions for APN: Q#5 Pengshuping (Peng Shuping)
- Re: [Apn] [arch-d] Questions for APN: Q#5 Christian Huitema
- Re: [Apn] [arch-d] Questions for APN: Q#5 Joel M. Halpern
- Re: [Apn] [arch-d] Questions for APN: Q#5 John C Klensin
- Re: [Apn] [arch-d] Questions for APN: Q#5 Pengshuping (Peng Shuping)
- [Apn] Fw: Re: [arch-d] Questions for APN: Q#5 zhangs366@chinaunicom.cn
- Re: [Apn] [arch-d] Questions for APN: Q#5 Lars Eggert
- Re: [Apn] [arch-d] Questions for APN: Q#5 Christian Huitema
- Re: [Apn] [Network-tokens] [arch-d] Questions for… Yiannis Yiakoumis
- Re: [Apn] [Network-tokens] [arch-d] Questions for… Pengshuping (Peng Shuping)
- [Apn] 回复: [Network-tokens] [arch-d] Questions for… 刘 鹏
- Re: [Apn] [Network-tokens] [arch-d] Questions for… Lars Eggert
- Re: [Apn] [Network-tokens] [arch-d] Questions for… Yiannis Yiakoumis
- Re: [Apn] [Network-tokens] [arch-d] Questions for… Christian Huitema
- Re: [Apn] [Network-tokens] [arch-d] Questions for… Yiannis Yiakoumis