Re: [Apn] [arch-d] Questions for APN: Q#5

"Joel M. Halpern" <jmh@joelhalpern.com> Mon, 21 September 2020 13:45 UTC

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To: Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema.net>, "Pengshuping (Peng Shuping)" <pengshuping@huawei.com>, "apn@ietf.org" <apn@ietf.org>
Cc: "architecture-discuss@iab.org" <architecture-discuss@iab.org>, "network-tokens@ietf.org" <network-tokens@ietf.org>
References: <4278D47A901B3041A737953BAA078ADE193E1DFF@DGGEML532-MBX.china.huawei.com> <d8db4777-b156-cf96-b367-7a9db613c2ff@huitema.net>
From: "Joel M. Halpern" <jmh@joelhalpern.com>
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Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2020 09:45:29 -0400
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Subject: Re: [Apn] [arch-d] Questions for APN: Q#5
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Well said.  Thank you Christian.
Joel

On 9/21/2020 2:54 AM, Christian Huitema wrote:
> Shuping,
> 
> I am reading your use cases, and my immediate reaction is that this 
> developments should not be addressed solely in the routing or IP layers. 
> You are proposing to enrich the network service proposed to transport 
> and applications, which amounts to creating new APIs. Such works affects 
> multiple layers, and should be coordinated between multiple layers.
> 
> I also see that the description of application requirements is very 
> thin. The drafts mention augmented reality and online games, and focus 
> largely on latency requirements for these applications. The latency has 
> two main components: delays in the wires, and queues in the routers. The 
> APN draft for example mentions players of games using servers on another 
> continent, and thus experiencing large latency. But that latency is 
> largely due to the distance. That distance is not going to be magically 
> reduced by smarter queue processing. The same is even more true for 
> video conferencing or telepresence applications. I live near Seattle. If 
> I want to talk to my mother in France, the bits have to be carried 
> across America and the across the Atlantic ocean. No amount of smart 
> routing will change that. Application developers are well aware of these 
> issues, and have designed their applications in consequence.
> 
> There is a lot of tension between Internet Architecture and the 
> "application aware" proposal. The Internet was built on a fundamental 
> decision to not be application aware. Instead, the routers carry packets 
> of bits, independently of which application uses these bits. That way, 
> new applications can constantly be invented, without requiring 
> modifications in the network or permissions from the network operators. 
> This has proven to be key for the development of the Internet. I don't 
> think that we want to change that. Even if we did I don't think that the 
> discussion should take place solely in some specialized routing working 
> groups.
> 
> -- Christian Huitema
> 
> 
> On 9/20/2020 7:19 PM, Pengshuping (Peng Shuping) wrote:
>>
>> Dear all,
>>
>> #5. What are the valuable use cases/usage scenarios of APN?
>>
>> Drafts have been posted on various use cases such as Game 
>> Accelerating, Edge computing, SD-WAN etc.
>>
>> 1)https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-li-apn-problem-statement-usecases-01
>>
>> 2) https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-liu-apn-edge-usecase-00
>>
>> 3) https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-zhang-apn-acceleration-usecase-00
>>
>> 4) https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-yang-apn-sd-wan-usecase-00
>>
>> Use cases have also been presented and discussed during the APN side 
>> meeting@IETF108. Please find the slides.
>>
>> https://github.com/APN-Community/IETF108-Side-Meeting-APN
>>
>> There have been some discussions on these use cases in the APN mailing 
>> list as well. Please find the archives.
>>
>> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apn/c-fQP4LRpe6yj3lJBsaRxTVcWHA/
>>
>> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apn/MCVuBYa7jgtJsIDEpbGTZ0U8Bvg/
>>
>> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apn/c-fQP4LRpe6yj3lJBsaRxTVcWHA/
>>
>> More interesting use cases are waiting to be explored. Please let us 
>> know if you have any other use cases. Thank you!
>>
>> Best regards,
>>
>> Shuping
>>
>> *From:*Lizhenbin
>> *Sent:* Monday, September 14, 2020 10:35 PM
>> *To:* apn@ietf.org
>> *Cc:* Pengshuping (Peng Shuping) <pengshuping@huawei.com>
>> *Subject:* Question List for APN
>>
>> Hi Folks,
>>
>> Thanks very much for your attention to APN work. After much 
>> preparation work, we summarized the key questions to be clarified for 
>> APN which also were always asked. In fact in the past discussion and 
>> the APN side meeting of IETF108, many of these questions were 
>> discussed and clarified. Here we propose these questions together for 
>> your convenience.
>>
>> The questions to be clarified are as follows:
>>
>> #1. Which layer is for APN to do the application-aware work?
>>
>> #2. Does APN provide services within a limited-domain or Internet?
>>
>> #3. Which area in IETF would the APN work fit better?
>>
>> #4. What is the relationship between APN and other attempts in IETF’s 
>> history?
>>
>> #5. What are the valuable use cases/usage scenarios of APN?
>>
>> #6. Is the fine-granularity operations needed/desired in the network?
>>
>> #7. Why not just use DSCP?
>>
>> #8. Does APN violate network neutrality?
>>
>> #9. Will APN raise security issues since application-aware information 
>> is carried in the APN packets?
>>
>> #10. Will APN raise privacy issues since application-aware information 
>> is carried in the APN packets?
>>
>> Shuping Peng will send the detailed answers for these questions in the 
>> mailing list in the following one or two weeks. The questions and 
>> answers may be not only be sent in the APN mailing list, but also be 
>> copied to the architecture discussion mailing list and the network 
>> token mailing list for more cross-area feedback if necessary.
>>
>> If you have any comments on these questions and answers, we can go on 
>> to discuss through the mailing list.
>>
>> Best Regards,
>>
>> Zhenbin (Robin)
>>
>> *From:*Apn [mailto:apn-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Lizhenbin
>> *Sent:* Tuesday, August 18, 2020 7:22 PM
>> *To:* apn@ietf.org <mailto:apn@ietf.org>
>> *Subject:* [Apn] Welcome to APN Mailing List
>>
>> Hi Folks,
>>
>> Welcome to join the APN mailing list. We are glad to have more 
>> discussion through the mailing list as the follow-up of the IETF108 
>> APN side meeting.
>>
>> In the process of APN work, many historic work items such as SPUD, 
>> PLUS, etc. have been proposed. It has been tried to be clarified that 
>> APN focuses
>>
>> on the network layer and limited domains. Concerns on the security and 
>> privacy issues also have been proposed many times about the work. It also
>>
>> has been tried to be clarified that in the trustable limited domains 
>> the security and privacy issues can be under control. These are the 
>> reasons why APN
>>
>> work is based in the RTG area instead of ART/TSV areas.
>>
>> But because of too much historic work to be clarified and its 
>> proposing the cross-area discussion for which RTG/APP/TSV/INT/SEC/IRTF 
>> are involved, it is
>>
>> necessary to have more discussion to clarify the scope and work items 
>> for APN. We wish the mailing list would be helpful to the work and 
>> promoting the
>>
>> cross-area communication to understand each other better.
>>
>> You can get yourself up to speed with our discussions so far by seeing 
>> the materials at <https://github.com/APN-Community/>, especially the 
>> materials
>>
>> From the virtual IETF 108  APN side meeting at 
>> <https://github.com/APN-Community/IETF108-Side-Meeting-APN>. This link 
>> also gives you pointers to
>>
>> some of the relevant Internet-Drafts.
>>
>> Over the next few weeks we will try to guide discussion by introducing 
>> some questions for debate. But please also raise your own issues and 
>> concerns
>>
>> and contribute to the exchanges on this list.
>>
>> Look forwarding to have more fun discussion in the mailing list.
>>
>> Best Regards,
>>
>> Dan & Zhenbin
>>
>>
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