Re: [Apn] [arch-d] Questions for APN: Q#5
"Joel M. Halpern" <jmh@joelhalpern.com> Mon, 21 September 2020 13:45 UTC
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To: Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema.net>, "Pengshuping (Peng Shuping)" <pengshuping@huawei.com>, "apn@ietf.org" <apn@ietf.org>
Cc: "architecture-discuss@iab.org" <architecture-discuss@iab.org>, "network-tokens@ietf.org" <network-tokens@ietf.org>
References: <4278D47A901B3041A737953BAA078ADE193E1DFF@DGGEML532-MBX.china.huawei.com> <d8db4777-b156-cf96-b367-7a9db613c2ff@huitema.net>
From: "Joel M. Halpern" <jmh@joelhalpern.com>
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Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2020 09:45:29 -0400
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Subject: Re: [Apn] [arch-d] Questions for APN: Q#5
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Well said. Thank you Christian. Joel On 9/21/2020 2:54 AM, Christian Huitema wrote: > Shuping, > > I am reading your use cases, and my immediate reaction is that this > developments should not be addressed solely in the routing or IP layers. > You are proposing to enrich the network service proposed to transport > and applications, which amounts to creating new APIs. Such works affects > multiple layers, and should be coordinated between multiple layers. > > I also see that the description of application requirements is very > thin. The drafts mention augmented reality and online games, and focus > largely on latency requirements for these applications. The latency has > two main components: delays in the wires, and queues in the routers. The > APN draft for example mentions players of games using servers on another > continent, and thus experiencing large latency. But that latency is > largely due to the distance. That distance is not going to be magically > reduced by smarter queue processing. The same is even more true for > video conferencing or telepresence applications. I live near Seattle. If > I want to talk to my mother in France, the bits have to be carried > across America and the across the Atlantic ocean. No amount of smart > routing will change that. Application developers are well aware of these > issues, and have designed their applications in consequence. > > There is a lot of tension between Internet Architecture and the > "application aware" proposal. The Internet was built on a fundamental > decision to not be application aware. Instead, the routers carry packets > of bits, independently of which application uses these bits. That way, > new applications can constantly be invented, without requiring > modifications in the network or permissions from the network operators. > This has proven to be key for the development of the Internet. I don't > think that we want to change that. Even if we did I don't think that the > discussion should take place solely in some specialized routing working > groups. > > -- Christian Huitema > > > On 9/20/2020 7:19 PM, Pengshuping (Peng Shuping) wrote: >> >> Dear all, >> >> #5. What are the valuable use cases/usage scenarios of APN? >> >> Drafts have been posted on various use cases such as Game >> Accelerating, Edge computing, SD-WAN etc. >> >> 1)https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-li-apn-problem-statement-usecases-01 >> >> 2) https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-liu-apn-edge-usecase-00 >> >> 3) https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-zhang-apn-acceleration-usecase-00 >> >> 4) https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-yang-apn-sd-wan-usecase-00 >> >> Use cases have also been presented and discussed during the APN side >> meeting@IETF108. Please find the slides. >> >> https://github.com/APN-Community/IETF108-Side-Meeting-APN >> >> There have been some discussions on these use cases in the APN mailing >> list as well. Please find the archives. >> >> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apn/c-fQP4LRpe6yj3lJBsaRxTVcWHA/ >> >> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apn/MCVuBYa7jgtJsIDEpbGTZ0U8Bvg/ >> >> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apn/c-fQP4LRpe6yj3lJBsaRxTVcWHA/ >> >> More interesting use cases are waiting to be explored. Please let us >> know if you have any other use cases. Thank you! >> >> Best regards, >> >> Shuping >> >> *From:*Lizhenbin >> *Sent:* Monday, September 14, 2020 10:35 PM >> *To:* apn@ietf.org >> *Cc:* Pengshuping (Peng Shuping) <pengshuping@huawei.com> >> *Subject:* Question List for APN >> >> Hi Folks, >> >> Thanks very much for your attention to APN work. After much >> preparation work, we summarized the key questions to be clarified for >> APN which also were always asked. In fact in the past discussion and >> the APN side meeting of IETF108, many of these questions were >> discussed and clarified. Here we propose these questions together for >> your convenience. >> >> The questions to be clarified are as follows: >> >> #1. Which layer is for APN to do the application-aware work? >> >> #2. Does APN provide services within a limited-domain or Internet? >> >> #3. Which area in IETF would the APN work fit better? >> >> #4. What is the relationship between APN and other attempts in IETF’s >> history? >> >> #5. What are the valuable use cases/usage scenarios of APN? >> >> #6. Is the fine-granularity operations needed/desired in the network? >> >> #7. Why not just use DSCP? >> >> #8. Does APN violate network neutrality? >> >> #9. Will APN raise security issues since application-aware information >> is carried in the APN packets? >> >> #10. Will APN raise privacy issues since application-aware information >> is carried in the APN packets? >> >> Shuping Peng will send the detailed answers for these questions in the >> mailing list in the following one or two weeks. The questions and >> answers may be not only be sent in the APN mailing list, but also be >> copied to the architecture discussion mailing list and the network >> token mailing list for more cross-area feedback if necessary. >> >> If you have any comments on these questions and answers, we can go on >> to discuss through the mailing list. >> >> Best Regards, >> >> Zhenbin (Robin) >> >> *From:*Apn [mailto:apn-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Lizhenbin >> *Sent:* Tuesday, August 18, 2020 7:22 PM >> *To:* apn@ietf.org <mailto:apn@ietf.org> >> *Subject:* [Apn] Welcome to APN Mailing List >> >> Hi Folks, >> >> Welcome to join the APN mailing list. We are glad to have more >> discussion through the mailing list as the follow-up of the IETF108 >> APN side meeting. >> >> In the process of APN work, many historic work items such as SPUD, >> PLUS, etc. have been proposed. It has been tried to be clarified that >> APN focuses >> >> on the network layer and limited domains. Concerns on the security and >> privacy issues also have been proposed many times about the work. It also >> >> has been tried to be clarified that in the trustable limited domains >> the security and privacy issues can be under control. These are the >> reasons why APN >> >> work is based in the RTG area instead of ART/TSV areas. >> >> But because of too much historic work to be clarified and its >> proposing the cross-area discussion for which RTG/APP/TSV/INT/SEC/IRTF >> are involved, it is >> >> necessary to have more discussion to clarify the scope and work items >> for APN. We wish the mailing list would be helpful to the work and >> promoting the >> >> cross-area communication to understand each other better. >> >> You can get yourself up to speed with our discussions so far by seeing >> the materials at <https://github.com/APN-Community/>, especially the >> materials >> >> From the virtual IETF 108 APN side meeting at >> <https://github.com/APN-Community/IETF108-Side-Meeting-APN>. This link >> also gives you pointers to >> >> some of the relevant Internet-Drafts. >> >> Over the next few weeks we will try to guide discussion by introducing >> some questions for debate. But please also raise your own issues and >> concerns >> >> and contribute to the exchanges on this list. >> >> Look forwarding to have more fun discussion in the mailing list. >> >> Best Regards, >> >> Dan & Zhenbin >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Architecture-discuss mailing list >> Architecture-discuss@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/architecture-discuss > > _______________________________________________ > Architecture-discuss mailing list > Architecture-discuss@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/architecture-discuss >
- [Apn] Questions for APN: Q#5 Pengshuping (Peng Shuping)
- Re: [Apn] [arch-d] Questions for APN: Q#5 Christian Huitema
- Re: [Apn] [arch-d] Questions for APN: Q#5 Joel M. Halpern
- Re: [Apn] [arch-d] Questions for APN: Q#5 John C Klensin
- Re: [Apn] [arch-d] Questions for APN: Q#5 Pengshuping (Peng Shuping)
- [Apn] Fw: Re: [arch-d] Questions for APN: Q#5 zhangs366@chinaunicom.cn
- Re: [Apn] [arch-d] Questions for APN: Q#5 Lars Eggert
- Re: [Apn] [arch-d] Questions for APN: Q#5 Christian Huitema
- Re: [Apn] [Network-tokens] [arch-d] Questions for… Yiannis Yiakoumis
- Re: [Apn] [Network-tokens] [arch-d] Questions for… Pengshuping (Peng Shuping)
- [Apn] 回复: [Network-tokens] [arch-d] Questions for… 刘 鹏
- Re: [Apn] [Network-tokens] [arch-d] Questions for… Lars Eggert
- Re: [Apn] [Network-tokens] [arch-d] Questions for… Yiannis Yiakoumis
- Re: [Apn] [Network-tokens] [arch-d] Questions for… Christian Huitema
- Re: [Apn] [Network-tokens] [arch-d] Questions for… Yiannis Yiakoumis