Re: [apps-discuss] Apps Area review of draft-sparks-genarea-imaparch-06
Robert Sparks <rjsparks@nostrum.com> Mon, 13 May 2013 14:27 UTC
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Date: Mon, 13 May 2013 09:27:34 -0500
From: Robert Sparks <rjsparks@nostrum.com>
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To: "\"Martin J. Dürst\"" <duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp>
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Cc: draft-sparks-genarea-imaparch.all@tools.ietf.org, IESG <iesg@ietf.org>, Apps Area WG <apps-discuss@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] Apps Area review of draft-sparks-genarea-imaparch-06
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On 5/13/13 12:27 AM, "Martin J. Dürst" wrote: > Hello Robert, > > I have looked at your update, i.e. draft-sparks-genarea-imaparch-07. > It seems that all my concerns have been addressed, thanks very much. > > Thanks also for adding me to the acks section. However, please there > change my name from "Martin Durst" to "Martin Duerst". That's how it's > spelled if the "ü" character isn't available (which fortunately is > less and less the case). Will do, and apologies for not getting it right the first time. RjS > > Regards, Martin. > > On 2013/05/02 6:25, Robert Sparks wrote: >> On 5/1/13 4:35 AM, "Martin J. Dürst" wrote: >>> I have been selected as the Applications Area Directorate reviewer for >>> this draft (for background on appsdir, please see >>> http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/app/trac/wiki/ApplicationsAreaDirectorate >>> >>> ). >>> >>> Please resolve these comments along with any other Last Call comments >>> you may receive. Please wait for direction from your document shepherd >>> or AD before posting a new version of the draft. >>> >>> Document: draft-sparks-genarea-imaparch-06 >>> Title: IMAP Access to IETF Email List Archives >>> Reviewer: Martin Dürst >>> Review Date: 2013/05/01 >>> >>> >>> Summary: There is one main issue that's unclear to me. Otherwise, the >>> draft is close to publication, but needs some additional work. >>> >>> Note: I'm not an IMAP expert, not even an IMAP user, and not somebody >>> the Apps Area would call an email expert, although I wrote RFC 5064 >>> and quite a bit of RFC 6068. So the comments here are mostly of >>> general nature. >>> >>> Main issue: It is totally unclear to me what the actual consequences >>> of this draft are if approved. >> >> It will be used as input to the development of a tool providing the >> capabilities described here. >> >> We are capturing input from the IETF participants on what that tool >> needs to do. >> >> We've followed this approach with several other documents >> - RFC6778 (the web-based email archive) >> - RFC6730 (for nomcom tools) >> - RFC6433 (milestones) >> - RFC6292 (charters) >> >> The document already says >> "This memo captures the >> requirements for providing a service that would allow such browsing >> and searching." >> >> Would it help to add "and it is intended as input to a later activity >> for the design and development of such a tool." and would that address >> your concern? Or is it fine as it was after seeing that other context? >> >> Whether this results in an IAOC funded project or is satisfied with >> volunteer effort is not something this document needs to discuss. >> >> >>> I could imagine any one of the following: >>> >>> - It's informational, so it doesn't have any standing, and is just a >>> wishlist, mostly just by the author. >>> - If and when it will be IESG-approved, it documents IETF consensus >>> on how to best implement IMAP-based access to mailing list archives >>> for the IETF should such access be desirable, but it does not >>> represent an IETF consensus to actually implement this (e.g. because >>> that needs money, and money doesn't move by IETF consensus). >>> - If and when it will be IESG-approved, it documents IETF consensus >>> that >>> IMAP-based access to IETF mailing lists is desirable, and should be >>> implemented asap (assuming somebody can come up with the necessary >>> resources). >>> - An informal mixture of the above: Those in the know agree it's a good >>> idea, but somebody said they need a document that can be referenced in >>> an RFP. >>> >>> While I'm personally okay with any of the above (I won't use this kind >>> of access in the near future, but can understand that many people are >>> using IMAP and it would be pretty handy to have such a feature; also I >>> won't have to pay for it), I think the fact that this unclarity exists >>> may make it difficult for others to review the draft. >>> >>> So I suggest that this be clarified. Unless it's just me who's unclear >>> on this issue, it may get close to meriting a new or prolonged last >>> call. >> That will be for Jari to judge, but as I point out above, we've followed >> this pattern, using the language in this draft before. >>> >>> >>> Minor issue: The draft should reference RFC 6855 (IMAP Support for >>> UTF-8) and require its support *at least* to the extent that RFC 6778 >>> does (see http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6778#section-3). >> I will work to sew in a reference to 6855 >>> >>> >>> Editorial/Nits: >>> >>> o The interface must allow administrators to disable setting read/ >>> unread marks and other annotations, and delete any such marks or >>> annotations on a per user basis. >>> >>> It's unclear how far back "on a per user basis" applies. >>> Also, "the interface" means "an IMAP interface" (first bullet point), >>> but it may not be possible or practical to have administrators use >>> IMAP itself for this function. So I suggest something along the >>> following lines: >>> >>> o It must be possible for administrators, on a per-user basis, to >>> disable setting read/unread marks and other annotations and to >>> delete any such marks or annotations. >> I'll fold this suggestion in. >>> >>> >>> "and should support multiple simultaneous extensive searches.": Is >>> this simultaneous searches by the same user, or by different users? I >>> suspect the later. If so, the clause should be rewritten so that it is >>> clear that this is a dimensioning requirement, not a functionality >>> requirement. >> I think it's _both_, not one or the other. I will attempt to clarify. >>> >>> "The server should facilitate the enhanced search capabilities >>> described in [RFC6778].": It is unclear what "facilitate" means here. >>> Technology usually implements something or doesn't; facilitate sounds >>> quite fuzzy. Although RFC 6778 is informational, it uses quite a bit >>> of 'must',... On the other hand, IMAP may or may not support some of >>> the queries listed as a 'must' in RFC 6778. >> Would "provide" work better for you than "facilitate"? >>> >>> >>> "(But it is acceptable for a user to access such archives while >>> providing credentials).": Don't start a sentence with 'But' (use >>> 'However'). Also, please put the final period inside the parentheses. >> I will remove the But, and leave ). vs .) to the RFC Editor. >>> >>> "an LOGIN command" -> "a LOGIN command" >> Thanks - will fix. >>> >>> "determined by the administrator ." -> "determined by the >>> administrator." >>> >>> "local copies all messages" -> "local copies of all messages" >>> >>> "maliciously crafted searches attempting to consume all available >>> resources" -> "maliciously crafted searches attempting to consume >>> significant available resources" (there is no need to consume all >>> resources to result in significant DOS problems) >>> >>> " maliciously crafted annontations attempting to consume all storage >>> space" -> " maliciously crafted annontations attempting to consume >>> significant storage space" >> Will fix all those. >>> >>> "The implementers should consider making it easy for the administrator >>> to determine which users are consuming exceptional space.": >>> "exceptional space" -> "exceptional amounts of space"; I also think >>> "should consider" is rather too weak, and "easy to determine" seems to >>> imply that administrators will have to actively check this (rather >>> than getting alerts when something fishy starts). >> The language is intended to leave latitude for design. Forcing >> administrators to poll would not satisfy "making it easy". >> I will try to make that clearer. >> >>> This may be just an implementation detail, but it may be a good idea >>> to note that flag implementation (and annotation implementation if an >>> annotation can be applied by the user to more than one message at >>> once) has to be quite clever because otherwise, even benign use might >>> use up lots of space. As an example, if the system allocates 4 bytes >>> for each message in the system for each user that logs into the system >>> even once, that may already create huge storage demands. >> I will look at calling this out. However, there are many bad things that >> an implementation _could_ do, and calling them all out is not needed >> here. Things like this would get caught at design review or as source >> comes in. (You can get the source for the running datatracker - see the >> codesprint pages if you don't already know how). Such bad design will be >> caught. Good designs are often improved at codesprints. >>> >>> Regards, Martin. >>> >>> >>> >> >>
- [apps-discuss] Apps Area review of draft-sparks-g… Martin J. Dürst
- Re: [apps-discuss] Apps Area review of draft-spar… Robert Sparks
- Re: [apps-discuss] Apps Area review of draft-spar… Barry Leiba
- Re: [apps-discuss] Apps Area review of draft-spar… Robert Sparks
- Re: [apps-discuss] Apps Area review of draft-spar… Martin J. Dürst
- Re: [apps-discuss] Apps Area review of draft-spar… Robert Sparks