Re: [apps-discuss] type name suffixes

Peter Saint-Andre <stpeter@stpeter.im> Tue, 15 November 2011 21:40 UTC

Return-Path: <stpeter@stpeter.im>
X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 555CB11E80D6 for <apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com>; Tue, 15 Nov 2011 13:40:27 -0800 (PST)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -101.704
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-101.704 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, SARE_RECV_IP_061228=0.895, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100]
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id M88R71fkDKvr for <apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com>; Tue, 15 Nov 2011 13:40:23 -0800 (PST)
Received: from stpeter.im (mailhost.stpeter.im [207.210.219.225]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2AC8011E80C6 for <apps-discuss@ietf.org>; Tue, 15 Nov 2011 13:40:23 -0800 (PST)
Received: from squire.local (unknown [61.230.53.171]) (Authenticated sender: stpeter) by stpeter.im (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id C8A6E4214E; Tue, 15 Nov 2011 14:46:35 -0700 (MST)
Message-ID: <4EC2DC42.7010307@stpeter.im>
Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2011 05:40:18 +0800
From: Peter Saint-Andre <stpeter@stpeter.im>
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.5; rv:8.0) Gecko/20111105 Thunderbird/8.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: Ned Freed <ned.freed@mrochek.com>
References: <4EB86078.8070904@stpeter.im> <BDC0F178EEB88CC4B3D24020@PST.JCK.COM> <4EB8D0F4.9020907@it.aoyama.ac.jp> <24FBF40353ABCC3A4F15E82B@PST.JCK.COM> <4EBB2B83.3060901@it.aoyama.ac.jp> <01O88AB2EM7S00RCTX@mauve.mrochek.com> <4EBBB0EE.8050502@it.aoyama.ac.jp> <01O88YVG6MQY00RCTX@mauve.mrochek.com> <4EBCCE76.2090807@it.aoyama.ac.jp> <01O8AM6GDT5000RCTX@mauve.mrochek.com> <4EC0CCAE.5070402@stpeter.im> <01O8EWMK2T8E00RCTX@mauve.mrochek.com>
In-Reply-To: <01O8EWMK2T8E00RCTX@mauve.mrochek.com>
X-Enigmail-Version: 1.3.3
OpenPGP: url=https://stpeter.im/stpeter.asc
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: apps-discuss@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] type name suffixes
X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12
Precedence: list
List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols <apps-discuss.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/apps-discuss>, <mailto:apps-discuss-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/apps-discuss>
List-Post: <mailto:apps-discuss@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:apps-discuss-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/apps-discuss>, <mailto:apps-discuss-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 21:40:27 -0000

On 11/15/11 6:10 AM, Ned Freed wrote:
>> On 11/12/11 4:46 AM, Ned Freed wrote:
>> >> On 2011/11/11 1:23, Ned Freed wrote:
>> >
>> >> >> On 2011/11/10 13:06, Ned Freed wrote:
>> >
>> >> >> > In practice the issue of what to register where has never been
>> much
>> >> >> of a
>> >> >> > problem. Speaking now as media types reviewer, I have not
>> >> infrequently
>> >> >> > pushed
>> >> >> > back on top-level type choices, usually successfully and always
>> >> >> amicably.
>> >> >
>> >> >> Do you know of any examples? This could help Dave with the general
>> >> list
>> >> >> of criteria that he wants to develop.
>> >> >
>> >> > I can't get into specifics without talking about the content of
>> >> > preliminary registration requests, which I try not to do. I can say
>> >> that
>> >> > the most common one has been someone asking for application when
>> >> image or
>> >> > video would be more appropriate.
>> >> >
>> >> > The most common name change I request, however, is the addition of
>> >> +xml.
>> >
>> >> Okay. This is about change from one existing top-level type to
>> another,
>> >> and about tweaking the minor type name with a suffix.
>> >
>> > Understood. Both things happen. As I said, the most common top level
>> change
>> > is from application to image or video. Next up would probably moves
>> from
>> > text to application, but come to think of it I haven't have one of
>> those
>> > in a while.
>> >
>> >> Out of the context
>> >> of the discussion, I thought that you were speaking about new
>> top-level
>> >> types when you wrote "I have not infrequently pushed back on top-level
>> >> type choices", but now I see that that's not a necessary
>> interpretation.
>> >
>> > I was simply noting that the most common change isn't a top-level
>> > change, but
>> > rather the addition of +xml. My apologies if that was confusing.
> 
>> I notice that draft-freed-media-type-regs-01 talked about structured
>> type name suffixes (e.g., "+xml") and calls for creation of a registry
>> for such suffixes. Ned, do you have thoughts on how people can more
>> easily define such suffixes, before draft-freed-media-type-regs (or
>> something like it) is approved?
> 
> Well, right now there is no process. RFC 4288 has some weasel-words about
> "using +sufffixes with care", so as reviewer that's what I do - I've
> allowed
> types with +json and +wbxml, I believe, but given the language I haven't
> felt
> comfortable asking people to add anything other than +xml to types that
> had no suffx.
> 
> I don't recall pushing back on any suffix usage, but I may have - I've
> reviewed
> a lot of types!
> 
>> The reason I ask is that I've had a few
>> people ask me about this topic recently.
> 
> Well, the preferable thing would be to get the process Tony defined that I
> included in 4288bis approved. Absent that, the rule is more or less that
> you
> can use a suffix if you like and if it seems to make sense.

Thanks for the clarification. I agree that the right place to define
this more carefully is 4288bis. In the meantime, let's say that someone
wants to register "application/foo+bar" -- do we feel that they need to
describe the "+bar" suffix in a separate specification, or can they
simply go ahead and use the suffix in the I-D that registers the "foo"
application, perhaps along with some explanatory text?

Peter

-- 
Peter Saint-Andre
https://stpeter.im/