Re: [apps-discuss] IETF technical plenary: the end of application protocols
Claudio Allocchio <Claudio.Allocchio@garr.it> Tue, 22 March 2011 08:48 UTC
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Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2011 09:49:53 +0100
From: Claudio Allocchio <Claudio.Allocchio@garr.it>
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To: Pete Resnick <presnick@qualcomm.com>
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Cc: dcrocker@bbiw.net, Apps Discuss <apps-discuss@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] IETF technical plenary: the end of application protocols
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On Mon, 21 Mar 2011, Pete Resnick wrote: > On 3/21/11 9:31 AM, Dave CROCKER wrote: >> Folks, >> >> I just saw the announcement for the Technical Plenary presentation. > I sent this to the IAB a few weeks ago. We haven't had much conversation > (they responded, but the firehose of stuff before the IETF meeting kept me > from replying until recently), but I thought you all would be amused. Pete... +1000 ! :-) (and I'm happy to be managing an R&D "carrier" which still thinks exactly what you wrote). > > -------- Original Message -------- > Message-ID: <4D76B361.2050704@qualcomm.com> > Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2011 16:53:21 -0600 > From: Pete Resnick <presnick@qualcomm.com> > To: <iab@iab.org> > Subject: IAB Technical Session > CC: "'The IESG'" <iesg@ietf.org> > > [Feel free to forward this as you see fit.] > > Dear IAB, > > You will probably find it unsurprising that I find the abstract of the > technical session at the IAB plenary to be completely unadulterated rubbish. > It is by no means the "advancement in the design of web browsers" nor the > "widespread availability and growing sophistication of JavaScript > interpreters in browsers" that has changed the architecture of applications. > Quite the contrary, it is the forcing of a particular application paradigm, > that of requiring all applications to be client-server based with all > intelligence based in the server, that has in turn forced Javascript > sophistication to increase to accommodate complex application logic inside > the browser. (Indeed, it is this force that has led to HyBi, the abomination > whereby browser-based applications, instead of being able to simply open a > TCP connection, are forced to go through an HTTP tunnel to the web server in > order to get any kind of network connectivity.) Protocols like POP and IMAP > are not being subsumed into these systems. Rather, the semantics of these > protocols are being dumbed down, eliminating functionality, in order to allow > them to fit into the new constrained environment. > > There are two obvious drivers of this evolution: First and foremost is the > continuing lack of end-to-end connectivity in the network. This is due to the > presence of NATs and assorted firewall nonsense that makes non-tunneled > applications harder and harder to deploy. But the second driving force is the > more insidious one: economics. The economics of the Internet are currently > being driven by big players consolidating the network, pushing as much as > they can into servers so that they can control both the data and the user > experience for applications on the Internet. This of course is not in the > interest of end users, except insofar as the "big players" are end users with > large economic interests. The more centralized the data becomes, the more > dependent users are on the "big players", the less innovation in applications > can take place, and the less stable the Internet is as a whole. > > This is not a state of affairs in which we need to "identify areas where the > standardization is unlikely to be relevant in the future, and focus our > efforts on those areas where our application designs will remain impactful." > Rather, we need to do what we can with tools we are currently developing (the > deployment of IPv6, the use of MPTCP and other protocols which allow us to > route around the damage to the end-to-end model) to combat this model and > have the Internet remain a distributed end-to-end network. > > Back to La Mancha. I've been noticing these windmills.... > > pr > > -- > Pete Resnick<http://www.qualcomm.com/~presnick/> > Qualcomm Incorporated - Direct phone: (858)651-4478, Fax: (858)651-1102 > > _______________________________________________ > apps-discuss mailing list > apps-discuss@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/apps-discuss > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Claudio Allocchio G A R R Claudio.Allocchio@garr.it Senior Technical Officer tel: +39 040 3758523 Italian Academic and G=Claudio; S=Allocchio; fax: +39 040 3758565 Research Network P=garr; A=garr; C=it; PGP Key: http://www.cert.garr.it/PGP/keys.php3#ca
- [apps-discuss] IETF technical plenary: the end of… Dave CROCKER
- Re: [apps-discuss] IETF technical plenary: the en… Dave Cridland
- Re: [apps-discuss] IETF technical plenary: the en… Scott Brim
- Re: [apps-discuss] IETF technical plenary: the en… Dave CROCKER
- Re: [apps-discuss] IETF technical plenary: the en… Claudio Allocchio
- Re: [apps-discuss] IETF technical plenary: the en… Bhumip Khasnabish
- Re: [apps-discuss] IETF technical plenary: the en… Dave CROCKER
- Re: [apps-discuss] IETF technical plenary: the en… Claudio Allocchio
- Re: [apps-discuss] IETF technical plenary: the en… Peter Saint-Andre
- Re: [apps-discuss] IETF technical plenary: the en… Ted Hardie
- Re: [apps-discuss] IETF technical plenary: the en… Dave CROCKER
- Re: [apps-discuss] IETF technical plenary: the en… Claudio Allocchio
- Re: [apps-discuss] IETF technical plenary: the en… Scott Brim
- Re: [apps-discuss] IETF technical plenary: the en… Scott Brim
- Re: [apps-discuss] IETF technical plenary: the en… Cyrus Daboo
- Re: [apps-discuss] IETF technical plenary: the en… Bhumip Khasnabish
- Re: [apps-discuss] IETF technical plenary: the en… Dave CROCKER
- Re: [apps-discuss] IETF technical plenary: the en… Graham Klyne
- Re: [apps-discuss] IETF technical plenary: the en… Hannes Tschofenig
- Re: [apps-discuss] IETF technical plenary: the en… Hannes Tschofenig
- Re: [apps-discuss] IETF technical plenary: the en… Scott Brim
- Re: [apps-discuss] IETF technical plenary: the en… Dave CROCKER
- Re: [apps-discuss] IETF technical plenary: the en… Scott Brim
- Re: [apps-discuss] IETF technical plenary: the en… Scott Brim
- Re: [apps-discuss] IETF technical plenary: the en… Hannes Tschofenig
- Re: [apps-discuss] IETF technical plenary: the en… Claudio Allocchio
- Re: [apps-discuss] IETF technical plenary: the en… Scott Brim
- Re: [apps-discuss] IETF technical plenary: the en… Scott Brim
- Re: [apps-discuss] IETF technical plenary: the en… Hannes Tschofenig
- Re: [apps-discuss] IETF technical plenary: the en… Dave Cridland
- Re: [apps-discuss] IETF technical plenary: the en… Claudio Allocchio
- Re: [apps-discuss] IETF technical plenary: the en… Hannes Tschofenig
- Re: [apps-discuss] IETF technical plenary: the en… Dave Cridland
- Re: [apps-discuss] IETF technical plenary: the en… Hannes Tschofenig
- Re: [apps-discuss] IETF technical plenary: the en… Ted Hardie
- Re: [apps-discuss] IETF technical plenary: the en… Dave Cridland
- Re: [apps-discuss] IETF technical plenary: the en… Pete Resnick
- Re: [apps-discuss] IETF technical plenary: the en… Dave CROCKER
- Re: [apps-discuss] IETF technical plenary: the en… SM
- Re: [apps-discuss] IETF technical plenary: the en… Hannes Tschofenig
- Re: [apps-discuss] IETF technical plenary: the en… Tschofenig, Hannes (NSN - FI/Espoo)
- Re: [apps-discuss] IETF technical plenary: the en… Graham Klyne
- Re: [apps-discuss] IETF technical plenary: the en… SM
- Re: [apps-discuss] IETF technical plenary: the en… Dave Cridland
- Re: [apps-discuss] IETF technical plenary: the en… Hannes Tschofenig
- Re: [apps-discuss] IETF technical plenary: the en… Mark Nottingham
- Re: [apps-discuss] IETF technical plenary: the en… Scott Brim
- Re: [apps-discuss] IETF technical plenary: the en… Leslie Daigle
- [apps-discuss] IETF-port-80 technical plenary Re:… Leslie Daigle
- Re: [apps-discuss] IETF-port-80 technical plenary… Mark Nottingham
- Re: [apps-discuss] IETF technical plenary: the en… Paul Hoffman
- Re: [apps-discuss] IETF technical plenary: the en… Claudio Allocchio
- Re: [apps-discuss] IETF technical plenary: the en… Nico Williams
- Re: [apps-discuss] IETF technical plenary: the en… Peterson, Jon
- Re: [apps-discuss] IETF technical plenary: the en… SM
- Re: [apps-discuss] IETF technical plenary: the en… Dave CROCKER
- Re: [apps-discuss] IETF technical plenary: the en… Nico Williams
- Re: [apps-discuss] AJAX is the new NAT Carsten Bormann
- Re: [apps-discuss] AJAX is the new NAT Marc Petit-Huguenin
- Re: [apps-discuss] AJAX is the new NAT Ted Hardie
- Re: [apps-discuss] AJAX is the new NAT Peterson, Jon
- Re: [apps-discuss] AJAX is the new NAT Marc Petit-Huguenin
- Re: [apps-discuss] IETF technical plenary: the en… Peter Saint-Andre
- Re: [apps-discuss] IETF technical plenary: the en… Scott Brim
- Re: [apps-discuss] IETF technical plenary: the en… Hannes Tschofenig
- Re: [apps-discuss] IETF technical plenary: the en… Dave Cridland
- Re: [apps-discuss] IETF technical plenary: the en… Scott Brim
- Re: [apps-discuss] IETF technical plenary: the en… Pete Resnick
- Re: [apps-discuss] IETF technical plenary: the en… Dave Cridland
- Re: [apps-discuss] IETF technical plenary: the en… Dave CROCKER
- Re: [apps-discuss] IETF technical plenary: the en… Lyndon Nerenberg (VE6BBM/VE7TFX)
- Re: [apps-discuss] IETF technical plenary: the en… Dave Cridland
- Re: [apps-discuss] IETF technical plenary: the en… Peter Saint-Andre
- Re: [apps-discuss] IETF technical plenary: the en… Nico Williams
- [apps-discuss] HYBI Alexey Melnikov
- Re: [apps-discuss] HYBI Salvatore Loreto
- Re: [apps-discuss] HYBI Graham Klyne
- Re: [apps-discuss] IETF technical plenary: the en… Graham Klyne
- Re: [apps-discuss] IETF technical plenary: the en… Hannes Tschofenig
- Re: [apps-discuss] IETF technical plenary: the en… Dave CROCKER
- Re: [apps-discuss] IETF technical plenary: the en… Hannes Tschofenig
- Re: [apps-discuss] IETF technical plenary: the en… Dave Cridland