Re: [apps-discuss] I-D Action: draft-ietf-appsawg-mdn-3798bis-07.txt
Alexey Melnikov <alexey.melnikov@isode.com> Thu, 05 May 2016 14:33 UTC
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To: John C Klensin <john-ietf@jck.com>, apps-discuss@ietf.org
References: <20160501115046.14230.42722.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <9626E3570CB632119010C433@JcK-HP8200.jck.com>
From: Alexey Melnikov <alexey.melnikov@isode.com>
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Date: Thu, 05 May 2016 15:24:52 +0100
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Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] I-D Action: draft-ietf-appsawg-mdn-3798bis-07.txt
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Hi John, On 01/05/2016 14:14, John C Klensin wrote: > --On Sunday, May 01, 2016 04:50 -0700 internet-drafts@ietf.org > wrote: > >> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line >> Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the >> ART Area General Applications Working Group of the IETF. >> >> Title : Message Disposition Notification >> Authors : Tony Hansen >> Alexey Melnikov >> Filename : draft-ietf-appsawg-mdn-3798bis-07.txt >> Pages : 33 >> Date : 2016-05-01 >> >> Abstract: >> This memo defines a MIME content-type that may be used by a >> mail user agent (MUA) or electronic mail gateway to report >> the disposition of a message after it has been successfully >> delivered to a recipient. This content-type is intended to >> be machine-processable. Additional message header fields >> are also defined to permit Message Disposition >> Notifications (MDNs) to be requested by the sender of a >> message. The purpose is to extend Internet Mail to support >> functionality often found in other messaging systems, such >> as X.400 and the proprietary "LAN-based" systems, and often >> referred to as "read receipts," "acknowledgements", or >> "receipt notifications." The intention is to do this while >> respecting privacy concerns, which have often been >> expressed when such functions have been discussed in the past. >> >> Because many messages are sent between the Internet and >> other messaging systems (such as X.400 or the proprietary >> "LAN-based" systems), the MDN protocol is designed to be >> useful in a multi- protocol messaging environment. To this >> end, the protocol described in this memo provides for the >> carriage of "foreign" addresses, in addition to those >> normally used in Internet Mail. Additional attributes may >> also be defined to support "tunneling" of foreign >> notifications through Internet Mail. > Two comments: > > (1) Editorial: A 20 or 21 line Abstract, even through it was > copied from 3798, is obnoxious. In addition to violating > historical RFC Editor rules, it violates the principles behind > an abstract and may not even fit on a single screen of a smaller > device. I can work on shortening. Suggestions are welcome. > (2) Substantive: As the authors of this document well know, RFC > 6533 is heavily (and normatively dependent) on RFC 3798. Its > MDN format is defined as using fields from 3798 that this I-D > alters to make more more restrictive. If the result of > approving this document is to obsolete 3798, Yes. > the status of 6533 > becomes unclear. Even if one hand-waves around the formal > status relationships, if the changes to fields that 6533 > includes by reference are important enough to include in this > I-D, then they should be applied to 6533. That does not seem > acceptable either substantively or procedurally. I see two > possible remedies and prefer the second: > > (2.1) Assuming that the changes in this I-D from 3798 do not > actually add value to the understanding of 6533, modify this > draft to update 6533 to reference this document instead, in the > process substituting the updated definitions of assorted fields, > obviously including the ua-* fields, removed fields, etc., > discussed in Appendix A of the present I-D. > > (2.2) Use this document to replace and obsolete 6533 as well, > creating a single, internationalized, MDN standard with > appropriate restrictions on the contexts for the use of > non-ASCII characters. I think I prefer revising RFC 6533 as a separate draft. Firstly, 3798bis is intended to be Internet Standard and merging the documents will reset that, because as far as I know it is not deployed enough. Secondly, merging is quite a bit of work and I would rather get 3798bis be done now, before I get more involved in IESG :-). I can help with 6553bis, but I would rather somebody new and eager steps up and drives the process. I can also entertain your option 2.1, but I need to investigate what exactly needs to change in RFC 6553, before forming my opinion. But again, this might reset 3798bis back to Proposed Standard. > It is now 18 years since RFC 2277 was > published; especially given the IETF's increasingly > international participation and focus, it is no longer seemly to > publish Internet Standards that come in "ASCII-only" and "this > is the i18n version of that" pairs (no matter what is done in > developing those Standards with, e.g., Proposed Standard, > documents). Unifying the two documents would also eliminate a > good deal of the actual and potential confusion between > ASCII-only and i18n notifications and would eliminate the need > to navigate among documents that is necessary with 6533 but > would become even more complex with the suggestion above (and > worse yet, left to the reader's imagination if the I-D is > unchanged). > > The obvious procedural objections to the second approach are > that no one has done implementation reports on 6533 or, for that > matter, on 6530, 6531, and 6532 (which 6533 normatively > references). However, the dependency relationships between 6533 > and this I-D (and 3798 for that matter) are such that, if 6533 > is not sufficiently implemented to demonstrate that all of the > pieces work together, then this document is not ready for prime > time (specifically Internet Standard) and should wait unless it > proposes to deprecate 6533 in favor of some other strategy. I am not sure this follows! > I'd > like to see 6530-6532 brought to Internet Standard sometimes > soon, but, if that is not feasible, it seems to me that > references to them from 3798bis would be one of the better > examples of why we now allow that by exception. > > There is, in principle, also an editorial process objection, > which is that it would be highly desirable for the authors of > 3798bis to collaborate actively with at least a majority of the > authors of 6533. It does not appear to pose a serious problem > in this case :-) Indeed :-). Best Regards, Alexey
- [apps-discuss] I-D Action: draft-ietf-appsawg-mdn… internet-drafts
- Re: [apps-discuss] I-D Action: draft-ietf-appsawg… John C Klensin
- Re: [apps-discuss] I-D Action: draft-ietf-appsawg… Alexey Melnikov