Re: [apps-discuss] Proposal for a Finance Area Mailing List

[Barry Leiba <[e-mail]>]

> Is there any news from Area Managers regarding the status of the
> creation of the proposed list as previously advised?

The purpose of non-working-group email lists on the IETF servers is to
provide a place for discussion of things related to IETF work -- an
offshoot of existing work, perhaps, a proposal for new work that needs
some fleshing out, or maybe a discussion of issues that we think will
lead to new work some time later.

The ADs are not convinced that the work proposed here is best done in
the IETF, nor that it's likely to develop into something that kicks
off new IETF work later.  That view seems backed by most comments by
others in the discussion of the proposal on the apps-discuss list.
Walter has also said that there are a good number of participants
ready to work on financial protocols here, if only we would create a
list for it, but has shown no evidence of it, and all requests from
the ADs for such evidence -- in the form of actual posts from people
expressing interest in working on this here -- have been responded to
by statements, both on and off the list, that we can't reasonably
expect people to post here first, but that once we have a proper
mailing list, they'll show up and work.

Despite that, the ADs have been inclined to create a list and see what
happens.  But discussion at the Paris meeting continued the skepticism
from the community that such a list will do anything useful for IETF
work.  In addition, there were several outright objections to creating
the list.  Apart from concern about the resources spent in the
management of it, applications-area participants point out that there
are many places outside the IETF to get free mailing lists for
discussion... and there's a worry that an IETF list may simply be used
to claim that the IETF backs this work (which it doesn't, at least not
yet), and perhaps, worse, that it backs it in preference to other
related proposals.

Given the clear consensus in the Applications Area, the Applications
ADs have decided NOT to create the proposed mailing list.  We suggest
that the proponents use Google, Yahoo!, or some other free service to
discuss their proposals with their many interested collaborators, and
consider coming to the IETF with a BoF proposal or working group
proposal when things are more solidly defined and ready to start real
protocol work.


Walter:
We understand that you will not be happy with this response, but this
is clearly the consensus of the Applications Area participants and we
tend to agree with them. That said, we do want to add that many of
your messages, particularly the private ones to us, can best be
described as impatient and at worst, mean spirited, implying that any
refusal to create this mailing list only proves that the IETF is a
useless organization and that you'd simply "take your ball and go
home."  That's probably not the best way to gain the cooperation of
the community. We did set that aside (indeed, asking the rest of the
community, which was unaware of the content of our off-list messages)
and decided based on the potential benefits to the Internet and the
IETF, and the consensus of community.

Barry and Pete, Applications Area Directors