Re: [apps-discuss] IETF technical plenary: the end of application protocols
Graham Klyne <GK@ninebynine.org> Tue, 22 March 2011 07:57 UTC
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To: Pete Resnick <presnick@qualcomm.com>
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Cc: dcrocker@bbiw.net, Apps Discuss <apps-discuss@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] IETF technical plenary: the end of application protocols
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Pete, Notwithstanding my earlier comments in support of Web/HTTP for some applications, I have some sympathy for the sentiments you express here. It does sometimes feel to me that there a technology "capture" taking place by some of the big web players (cf. HTML5), and also there's the whole net neutrality debate seems to be heating up (again?). But at heart the web *should* be about decentralization, breaking the dependencies on single servers and services, enabling developers to develop innovative new applications based on web data. The web architecture principles build on the end-to-end Internet philosophy, and explicitly try to avoid adding new control points. I would say that "big players ... pushing as much as they can into servers so that they can control both the data and the user experience" is something the web makes possible in some cases by virtue of its lack of central coordination. There are many developers in the web community who are creating innovative applications that fit in and around the offerings of the big players. For just one example that happens to spring to mind, see http://weblog.clarkparsia.com/2010/05/26/another-reason-semantic-web-kicks-ass/. The Web is harmed as much by the lack of end-to-end connectivity as any other application. And, yes, I think that HyBi has degenerated into a rather unproductive bun-fight, possibly by trying to do too much rather than figuring a minimum set of requirements that could unlock a range of new capabilities *within* the established web framework. And yes, the Web isn't right for every application (email being a case in point). But I claim that there are very many applications that *can* sit comfortably within the web framework if the design is approached in a conforming way. (And that a lot of design choices in application design may be quite arbitrary, and constraining some of those choices doesn't greatly limit the range of useful applications that can be created.) So, while I agree with your exhortation to restore end-to-end connectivity to the Internet, I don't think that the Web itself is truly the great bete noir in this (other than, by virtue of its widespread use, exacerbating and accelerating the depletion of endpoint addresses). Don't throw out the baby with the bathwater! #g -- FWIW, I can think of two simple (to describe) capabilities that would help to make the web more widely usable as a application platform: (a) a *simple* mechanism for pushing asynchronous notifications to a web application (browser-based or otherwise). I had early hopes for HyBi, but have somewhat given up. (b) a well-founded security model to permit controlled relaxation of the same-origin restrictions on web applications in browsers. Many of the current proposals I'm aware of seem to lack a coherent security analysis (though, when I last looked, HTML5 may be an exception in this regard). I think this could make it easier to separate data storage from applications, opening the way to give users back control of their data. Pete Resnick wrote: > On 3/21/11 9:31 AM, Dave CROCKER wrote: >> Folks, >> >> I just saw the announcement for the Technical Plenary presentation. > I sent this to the IAB a few weeks ago. We haven't had much conversation > (they responded, but the firehose of stuff before the IETF meeting kept > me from replying until recently), but I thought you all would be amused. > > -------- Original Message -------- > Message-ID: <4D76B361.2050704@qualcomm.com> > Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2011 16:53:21 -0600 > From: Pete Resnick <presnick@qualcomm.com> > To: <iab@iab.org> > Subject: IAB Technical Session > CC: "'The IESG'" <iesg@ietf.org> > > [Feel free to forward this as you see fit.] > > Dear IAB, > > You will probably find it unsurprising that I find the abstract of the > technical session at the IAB plenary to be completely unadulterated > rubbish. It is by no means the "advancement in the design of web > browsers" nor the "widespread availability and growing sophistication of > JavaScript interpreters in browsers" that has changed the architecture > of applications. Quite the contrary, it is the forcing of a particular > application paradigm, that of requiring all applications to be > client-server based with all intelligence based in the server, that has > in turn forced Javascript sophistication to increase to accommodate > complex application logic inside the browser. (Indeed, it is this force > that has led to HyBi, the abomination whereby browser-based > applications, instead of being able to simply open a TCP connection, are > forced to go through an HTTP tunnel to the web server in order to get > any kind of network connectivity.) Protocols like POP and IMAP are not > being subsumed into these systems. Rather, the semantics of these > protocols are being dumbed down, eliminating functionality, in order to > allow them to fit into the new constrained environment. > > There are two obvious drivers of this evolution: First and foremost is > the continuing lack of end-to-end connectivity in the network. This is > due to the presence of NATs and assorted firewall nonsense that makes > non-tunneled applications harder and harder to deploy. But the second > driving force is the more insidious one: economics. The economics of the > Internet are currently being driven by big players consolidating the > network, pushing as much as they can into servers so that they can > control both the data and the user experience for applications on the > Internet. This of course is not in the interest of end users, except > insofar as the "big players" are end users with large economic > interests. The more centralized the data becomes, the more dependent > users are on the "big players", the less innovation in applications can > take place, and the less stable the Internet is as a whole. > > This is not a state of affairs in which we need to "identify areas where > the standardization is unlikely to be relevant in the future, and focus > our efforts on those areas where our application designs will remain > impactful." Rather, we need to do what we can with tools we are > currently developing (the deployment of IPv6, the use of MPTCP and other > protocols which allow us to route around the damage to the end-to-end > model) to combat this model and have the Internet remain a distributed > end-to-end network. > > Back to La Mancha. I've been noticing these windmills.... > > pr >
- [apps-discuss] IETF technical plenary: the end of… Dave CROCKER
- Re: [apps-discuss] IETF technical plenary: the en… Dave Cridland
- Re: [apps-discuss] IETF technical plenary: the en… Scott Brim
- Re: [apps-discuss] IETF technical plenary: the en… Dave CROCKER
- Re: [apps-discuss] IETF technical plenary: the en… Claudio Allocchio
- Re: [apps-discuss] IETF technical plenary: the en… Bhumip Khasnabish
- Re: [apps-discuss] IETF technical plenary: the en… Dave CROCKER
- Re: [apps-discuss] IETF technical plenary: the en… Claudio Allocchio
- Re: [apps-discuss] IETF technical plenary: the en… Peter Saint-Andre
- Re: [apps-discuss] IETF technical plenary: the en… Ted Hardie
- Re: [apps-discuss] IETF technical plenary: the en… Dave CROCKER
- Re: [apps-discuss] IETF technical plenary: the en… Claudio Allocchio
- Re: [apps-discuss] IETF technical plenary: the en… Scott Brim
- Re: [apps-discuss] IETF technical plenary: the en… Scott Brim
- Re: [apps-discuss] IETF technical plenary: the en… Cyrus Daboo
- Re: [apps-discuss] IETF technical plenary: the en… Bhumip Khasnabish
- Re: [apps-discuss] IETF technical plenary: the en… Dave CROCKER
- Re: [apps-discuss] IETF technical plenary: the en… Graham Klyne
- Re: [apps-discuss] IETF technical plenary: the en… Hannes Tschofenig
- Re: [apps-discuss] IETF technical plenary: the en… Hannes Tschofenig
- Re: [apps-discuss] IETF technical plenary: the en… Scott Brim
- Re: [apps-discuss] IETF technical plenary: the en… Dave CROCKER
- Re: [apps-discuss] IETF technical plenary: the en… Scott Brim
- Re: [apps-discuss] IETF technical plenary: the en… Scott Brim
- Re: [apps-discuss] IETF technical plenary: the en… Hannes Tschofenig
- Re: [apps-discuss] IETF technical plenary: the en… Claudio Allocchio
- Re: [apps-discuss] IETF technical plenary: the en… Scott Brim
- Re: [apps-discuss] IETF technical plenary: the en… Scott Brim
- Re: [apps-discuss] IETF technical plenary: the en… Hannes Tschofenig
- Re: [apps-discuss] IETF technical plenary: the en… Dave Cridland
- Re: [apps-discuss] IETF technical plenary: the en… Claudio Allocchio
- Re: [apps-discuss] IETF technical plenary: the en… Hannes Tschofenig
- Re: [apps-discuss] IETF technical plenary: the en… Dave Cridland
- Re: [apps-discuss] IETF technical plenary: the en… Hannes Tschofenig
- Re: [apps-discuss] IETF technical plenary: the en… Ted Hardie
- Re: [apps-discuss] IETF technical plenary: the en… Dave Cridland
- Re: [apps-discuss] IETF technical plenary: the en… Pete Resnick
- Re: [apps-discuss] IETF technical plenary: the en… Dave CROCKER
- Re: [apps-discuss] IETF technical plenary: the en… SM
- Re: [apps-discuss] IETF technical plenary: the en… Hannes Tschofenig
- Re: [apps-discuss] IETF technical plenary: the en… Tschofenig, Hannes (NSN - FI/Espoo)
- Re: [apps-discuss] IETF technical plenary: the en… Graham Klyne
- Re: [apps-discuss] IETF technical plenary: the en… SM
- Re: [apps-discuss] IETF technical plenary: the en… Dave Cridland
- Re: [apps-discuss] IETF technical plenary: the en… Hannes Tschofenig
- Re: [apps-discuss] IETF technical plenary: the en… Mark Nottingham
- Re: [apps-discuss] IETF technical plenary: the en… Scott Brim
- Re: [apps-discuss] IETF technical plenary: the en… Leslie Daigle
- [apps-discuss] IETF-port-80 technical plenary Re:… Leslie Daigle
- Re: [apps-discuss] IETF-port-80 technical plenary… Mark Nottingham
- Re: [apps-discuss] IETF technical plenary: the en… Paul Hoffman
- Re: [apps-discuss] IETF technical plenary: the en… Claudio Allocchio
- Re: [apps-discuss] IETF technical plenary: the en… Nico Williams
- Re: [apps-discuss] IETF technical plenary: the en… Peterson, Jon
- Re: [apps-discuss] IETF technical plenary: the en… SM
- Re: [apps-discuss] IETF technical plenary: the en… Dave CROCKER
- Re: [apps-discuss] IETF technical plenary: the en… Nico Williams
- Re: [apps-discuss] AJAX is the new NAT Carsten Bormann
- Re: [apps-discuss] AJAX is the new NAT Marc Petit-Huguenin
- Re: [apps-discuss] AJAX is the new NAT Ted Hardie
- Re: [apps-discuss] AJAX is the new NAT Peterson, Jon
- Re: [apps-discuss] AJAX is the new NAT Marc Petit-Huguenin
- Re: [apps-discuss] IETF technical plenary: the en… Peter Saint-Andre
- Re: [apps-discuss] IETF technical plenary: the en… Scott Brim
- Re: [apps-discuss] IETF technical plenary: the en… Hannes Tschofenig
- Re: [apps-discuss] IETF technical plenary: the en… Dave Cridland
- Re: [apps-discuss] IETF technical plenary: the en… Scott Brim
- Re: [apps-discuss] IETF technical plenary: the en… Pete Resnick
- Re: [apps-discuss] IETF technical plenary: the en… Dave Cridland
- Re: [apps-discuss] IETF technical plenary: the en… Dave CROCKER
- Re: [apps-discuss] IETF technical plenary: the en… Lyndon Nerenberg (VE6BBM/VE7TFX)
- Re: [apps-discuss] IETF technical plenary: the en… Dave Cridland
- Re: [apps-discuss] IETF technical plenary: the en… Peter Saint-Andre
- Re: [apps-discuss] IETF technical plenary: the en… Nico Williams
- [apps-discuss] HYBI Alexey Melnikov
- Re: [apps-discuss] HYBI Salvatore Loreto
- Re: [apps-discuss] HYBI Graham Klyne
- Re: [apps-discuss] IETF technical plenary: the en… Graham Klyne
- Re: [apps-discuss] IETF technical plenary: the en… Hannes Tschofenig
- Re: [apps-discuss] IETF technical plenary: the en… Dave CROCKER
- Re: [apps-discuss] IETF technical plenary: the en… Hannes Tschofenig
- Re: [apps-discuss] IETF technical plenary: the en… Dave Cridland