Re: [apps-discuss] [saag] [websec] [kitten] HTTP authentication: the next generation
John C Klensin <john-ietf@jck.com> Fri, 17 December 2010 11:09 UTC
Return-Path: <john-ietf@jck.com>
X-Original-To: apps-discuss@core3.amsl.com
Delivered-To: apps-discuss@core3.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C3F23A6AE1; Fri, 17 Dec 2010 03:09:35 -0800 (PST)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -102.874
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.874 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.275, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100]
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lDpbY0xUl6Tg; Fri, 17 Dec 2010 03:09:34 -0800 (PST)
Received: from bs.jck.com (ns.jck.com [209.187.148.211]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 103673A6AE0; Fri, 17 Dec 2010 03:09:34 -0800 (PST)
Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=localhost) by bs.jck.com with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1PTYDQ-0004Hs-Dd; Fri, 17 Dec 2010 06:11:12 -0500
X-Vipre-Scanned: 07A7194C001DEB07A71A99-TDI
Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2010 06:11:11 -0500
From: John C Klensin <john-ietf@jck.com>
To: Peter Gutmann <pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz>
Message-ID: <97844CCF96DABB3B5F2A976F@[192.168.1.128]>
In-Reply-To: <E1PTSiO-0000Sd-7O@login01.fos.auckland.ac.nz>
References: <E1PTSiO-0000Sd-7O@login01.fos.auckland.ac.nz>
X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Win32)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline
Cc: Common@core3.amsl.com, apps-discuss@ietf.org, websec@ietf.org, smb@cs.columbia.edu, kitten@ietf.org, http-auth@ietf.org, ietf-http-wg@w3.org, saag@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] [saag] [websec] [kitten] HTTP authentication: the next generation
X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9
Precedence: list
List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols <apps-discuss.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/apps-discuss>, <mailto:apps-discuss-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/apps-discuss>
List-Post: <mailto:apps-discuss@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:apps-discuss-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/apps-discuss>, <mailto:apps-discuss-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2010 11:09:35 -0000
--On Friday, December 17, 2010 6:18 PM +1300 Peter Gutmann <pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz> wrote: > John C Klensin <john-ietf@jck.com> writes: > >> We could round up a collection of UI experts to look at some >> of these things and have them shake their heads and say >> "royal mess you have gotten yourselves into". > > The problem isn't that UI experts haven't looked at this, > there have been a large number of papers published on this > problem over the last decade or so, it's that it's proven > pretty much impossible to get any action taken over it. The > browser approach is "PKI isn't working, so we'll respond with > even more PKI (EV certs) while stridently ignoring any > workable alternatives (TLS-SRP and -PSK)", and there's no > sign that this will ever change. There simply isn't a hammer > big enough to force a change here (or, if there is, no-one's > managed to identify it yet). I perhaps should have said "...yet another collection of UI experts..." and "shake their heads again...". But I don't think we disagree: from my point of view, you are just describing some aspects of what I tried to summarize as "royal mess". I do think there is at least one big enough hammer although I'm not predicting we will get there soon and really don't like seeing protocols designed by a sequence of disaster, legal action, and legislation. And, I am not, for the record, offering an opinion as to whether the approaches you suggest are workable and/or the right answers. john
- Re: [apps-discuss] HTTP authentication: the next … Mark Nottingham
- [apps-discuss] HTTP authentication: the next gene… Peter Saint-Andre
- Re: [apps-discuss] [saag] HTTP authentication: th… Paul Hoffman
- Re: [apps-discuss] [kitten] HTTP authentication: … Nicolas Williams
- Re: [apps-discuss] [saag] HTTP authentication: th… Henry B. Hotz
- Re: [apps-discuss] [websec] HTTP authentication: … Marsh Ray
- Re: [apps-discuss] [kitten] [saag] HTTP authentic… Josh Howlett
- Re: [apps-discuss] [kitten] [saag] HTTP authentic… Alexey Melnikov
- Re: [apps-discuss] [kitten] [saag] HTTP authentic… Josh Howlett
- Re: [apps-discuss] [kitten] [saag] HTTP authentic… Luke Howard
- Re: [apps-discuss] [kitten] [saag] HTTP authentic… Yaron Sheffer
- Re: [apps-discuss] [saag] HTTP authentication: th… Yoav Nir
- Re: [apps-discuss] [saag] HTTP authentication: th… Yoav Nir
- Re: [apps-discuss] [kitten] [saag] HTTP authentic… Yoav Nir
- Re: [apps-discuss] [kitten] [saag] HTTP authentic… Yoav Nir
- Re: [apps-discuss] [kitten] [saag] HTTP authentic… Alexey Melnikov
- Re: [apps-discuss] [kitten] [saag] HTTP authentic… Eliot Lear
- Re: [apps-discuss] [kitten] [saag] HTTP authentic… Roy T. Fielding
- Re: [apps-discuss] [kitten] [saag] HTTP authentic… Dave Cridland
- Re: [apps-discuss] [kitten] [saag] HTTP authentic… Dave Cridland
- Re: [apps-discuss] [kitten] [saag] HTTP authentic… Eliot Lear
- Re: [apps-discuss] [kitten] [saag] HTTP authentic… Carsten Bormann
- Re: [apps-discuss] [kitten] [saag] HTTP authentic… Eliot Lear
- Re: [apps-discuss] [kitten] [saag] HTTP authentic… Dave Cridland
- Re: [apps-discuss] [websec] HTTP authentication: … Julian Reschke
- Re: [apps-discuss] [kitten] [saag] HTTP authentic… Adrien de Croy
- Re: [apps-discuss] [saag] [kitten] HTTP authentic… Alan DeKok
- Re: [apps-discuss] [websec] [saag] HTTP authentic… Ben Laurie
- Re: [apps-discuss] [kitten] [saag] HTTP authentic… Dave Raggett
- Re: [apps-discuss] [websec] [kitten] [saag] HTTP … Marsh Ray
- Re: [apps-discuss] [kitten] [saag] HTTP authentic… Tim Morgan
- Re: [apps-discuss] [saag] [websec] [kitten] HTTP … Yaron Sheffer
- Re: [apps-discuss] [kitten] [saag] HTTP authentic… Yoav Nir
- Re: [apps-discuss] [websec] [kitten] [saag] HTTP … Yoav Nir
- Re: [apps-discuss] [saag] [websec] [kitten] HTTP … Yoav Nir
- Re: [apps-discuss] [http-auth] [websec] [saag] [k… Henry B. Hotz
- Re: [apps-discuss] [http-auth] [websec] [saag] HT… Henry B. Hotz
- Re: [apps-discuss] [websec] [saag] [kitten] HTTP … Marsh Ray
- Re: [apps-discuss] [kitten] [saag] HTTP authentic… Nicolas Williams
- Re: [apps-discuss] [kitten] [saag] HTTP authentic… Nicolas Williams
- Re: [apps-discuss] [saag] [websec] [kitten] HTTP … Steven Bellovin
- Re: [apps-discuss] [saag] [websec] [kitten] HTTP … John C Klensin
- Re: [apps-discuss] [http-auth] [websec] HTTP auth… Tim Morgan
- Re: [apps-discuss] [saag] [websec] [kitten] HTTP … John C Klensin
- Re: [apps-discuss] [saag] [kitten] HTTP authentic… Joel Jaeggli
- Re: [apps-discuss] [http-auth] [saag] [websec] [k… Marsh Ray
- Re: [apps-discuss] [saag] [websec] [kitten] HTTP … der Mouse
- Re: [apps-discuss] [http-auth] [saag] [websec] [k… der Mouse
- Re: [apps-discuss] [http-auth] [saag] [websec] [k… Tim
- Re: [apps-discuss] [websec] [kitten] [saag] HTTP … Adrien de Croy
- Re: [apps-discuss] [websec] [kitten] [saag] HTTP … Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [apps-discuss] [websec] [kitten] [saag] HTTP … Nathan
- Re: [apps-discuss] [saag] [websec] [kitten] HTTP … Adrien de Croy
- Re: [apps-discuss] [saag] [websec] [kitten] HTTP … Ben Laurie
- Re: [apps-discuss] [saag] [websec] [kitten] HTTP … Ben Laurie
- Re: [apps-discuss] [saag] [websec] [kitten] HTTP … Josh Howlett
- Re: [apps-discuss] [websec] [saag] [kitten] HTTP … Marsh Ray
- Re: [apps-discuss] [saag] [websec] [kitten] HTTP … Jeffrey Hutzelman
- Re: [apps-discuss] [saag] [websec] [kitten] HTTP … Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [apps-discuss] [websec] [kitten] [saag] HTTP … Ben Laurie
- Re: [apps-discuss] [websec] [kitten] [saag] HTTP … David Morris
- Re: [apps-discuss] [kitten] [saag] HTTP authentic… Robert Sayre
- Re: [apps-discuss] [websec] [kitten] [saag] HTTP … Tim
- Re: [apps-discuss] [saag] [websec] [kitten] HTTP … Ben Laurie
- Re: [apps-discuss] [websec] [saag] [kitten] HTTP … Marsh Ray
- Re: [apps-discuss] [saag] [websec] [kitten] HTTP … der Mouse
- Re: [apps-discuss] [saag] [websec] [kitten] HTTP … Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [apps-discuss] [saag] [websec] [kitten] HTTP … Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [apps-discuss] [saag] [websec] [kitten] HTTP … Blaine Cook
- Re: [apps-discuss] [saag] [websec] [kitten] HTTP … Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [apps-discuss] [saag] [websec] [kitten] HTTP … Ben Laurie
- Re: [apps-discuss] [http-auth] [saag] [websec] [k… Marsh Ray
- Re: [apps-discuss] [saag] [websec] [kitten] HTTP … Blaine Cook
- Re: [apps-discuss] [saag] [websec] [kitten] HTTP … Blaine Cook
- Re: [apps-discuss] [saag] [websec] [kitten] HTTP … Ben Laurie
- Re: [apps-discuss] [saag] [websec] [kitten] HTTP … Marsh Ray
- Re: [apps-discuss] [saag] [websec] [kitten] HTTP … Marsh Ray
- Re: [apps-discuss] [saag] [websec] [kitten] HTTP … Theodore Tso